Current Affairs Ukraine

[blulouie]

Well this gets back to what the Ukraine is. Its much more simple to see Britain and Ireland as nations and peoples (oops, maybe not the best example), its not that straightforward with the Ukraine.
The Ukraine will either be in the hands of Western matkets (which are bringing us to extinction) or in the hands of Russia.
My take on this is that ideally Ukraine ends up in a federation of Eastern Europe that is not controlled by the old regime, they take a path away from Soviet authoritarianism that does not lead to the West, literally.
That they forge a path that can teach the West a lesson or two on what it's going take to survive. 'Russians, and 'Ukranians' forging a path together, and in so doing providinguch needed stability to the world.
Genuine question, do you think the UK feels more independent after Brexit? Or does it feel like the world is closing in on that independence.
Will the 'liberation' of the Ukraine change any of that.

Use all the semantics you want.


If the Ukraine wanted to be controlled by Russia they would have done so by the ballot box.

As they emphatically didnt , the ONLY way to judge this is a Democracy has been invaded by a Dictatorship against its will.

The ONLY people that should have a say in what path they choose is the Ukrainian people.

And they have spoke loud and clear.

Your 'take' is immaterial.

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

@Spadge Vernacular

Yes?

 

[bluebud]

Putins not going to withdraw with a perceived loss, so been thinking about what deal could be offered to him so he can save face?

Immediate and total ceasefire.

Immediate removal of Russian forces from all Ukrainian territories and “independent states”.

Removal of Zelensky and the current Ukrainian government- is completely off the table.

Denazification- offer of UN enquiry with neutral observers- China can be one. Putin invited to present his evidence, any victims encouraged to come forward- suggestion of educational programming.

Both Russian and Ukrainian languages to be respected, remain in place and be taught in schools.

After full withdrawal of all Russian military, Independence elections to be held in Crimea, Donbas and Luhansk Oblasts, who can choose themselves if they wish to a) remain part of Ukraine b) become independent countries c) become “principality states” similar to Monaco/ lichtenstein/ San Marino.

Russian prisoners of war to be transferred to Kalliningrad, to be detained for an agreed period in a Russian facility overseen by UN and neutral observers- China can be one. Families allowed and funded to visit them.

New election to take place in Belarus - give it go, might be pushing it for now.

 

[Tree13]

Its a war mate.

"Geneva Convention" will be another phrase that means nothing to you, I presume?

Targeting civilians during military combat is a "war crime" (look that term up). It's the absolute absence of humanity. What on earth has happened to your moral compass?

 

[Blue Roo]

Most of it tbh.

Thank god for our hard fought but tenuous freedoms eh? ?

 

[Tree13]

Its a war mate.

Come on @GrandOldTeam - have a word. It's surely not forum policy to allow people to endorse war crimes.

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

Well this gets back to what the Ukraine is. Its much more simple to see Britain and Ireland as nations and peoples (oops, maybe not the best example), its not that straightforward with the Ukraine.
The Ukraine will either be in the hands of Western matkets (which are bringing us to extinction) or in the hands of Russia.
My take on this is that ideally Ukraine ends up in a federation of Eastern Europe that is not controlled by the old regime, they take a path away from Soviet authoritarianism that does not lead to the West, literally.
That they forge a path that can teach the West a lesson or two on what it's going take to survive. 'Russians, and 'Ukranians' forging a path together, and in so doing providinguch needed stability to the world.
Genuine question, do you think the UK feels more independent after Brexit? Or does it feel like the world is closing in on that independence.
Will the 'liberation' of the Ukraine change any of that.

Have you got a lute, mate?

Edit

 

[Wat Tyler]

"Geneva Convention" will be another phrase that means nothing to you, I presume?

Targeting civilians during military combat is a "war crime" (look that term up). It's the absolute absence of humanity. What on earth has happened to your moral compass?

Gone South

 

[PhilM]

"Geneva Convention" will be another phrase that means nothing to you, I presume?

Targeting civilians during military combat is a "war crime" (look that term up). It's the absolute absence of humanity. What on earth has happened to your moral compass?

@Kev The Rat, do you think it was fair for the Wehrmacht to commit massacres of British troops at Wormhoudt or Le Paradis?

Or those pesky comrades of yours during WWII surrendering to the Germans and being difficult to feed, so it was fair to starve them or burn them.

Comrade Kev is a Cicero fan: Inter arma enim silent lēgēs.

 

[Lobster Johnson]

The question was really about whether 'independence' is achievable. UK has just become 'independent'.

To your question- the same could be said of all the people Britain has invaded, yet people have been willing to overcome this. Or should I not forgive the people of Britain and support the IRA against their oppressors.
The rub in all this should be will the Russian people forge change with help of a willing Ukrainians.
The answer will be that West and the US in particular won't let this happen.

Britain was independent before Brexit, it remains independent now, It voluntarily pooled it's sovriegnty with other EU nations to form a trading block. The fact is that no nation can ever be free of links to others, regardless of what form those takes.

As to the point about forgiving their oppressors, it's admirable that you're willing to take a view a few hundred years into the future.

Is your argument really that it is the west currently causing Ukranian troops and civilians to return fire on their Russian brothers who are only advancing in order to hand out free hugs?

 

[Thomasc]

is that the NATO website?

You are clearly just trying to be edgy now and provocative.
Get on ignore you attention seeking quilt.

I’m sanctioning you, in your piss stained undies sat there revelling in human misery, getting a cheap thrill out of the misery this is causing.

Oh and Kevin Ratcliffes a dreadfully dim and dreary football commentator too.

 

[verreauxi]

?

@marnie is saying you come off like an immature knobhead, and this thread of all threads is not the place to do it. This has been pointed out to you at least 3x already.

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

Is it just me or does the image below come to mind when reading @Blue Roo posts?

 

[Tree13]

Whats interesting is the lack of political discourse in Russia that presents a proper alternative to the 'strongman' politics that have controlled it for generations.

They cant join the EU, they cant join NATO - they have the largest nuclear arsenal in the world, and are the largest country in the world.

What is the way forward?

They could join NATO and the EU. The problem is their ruling elite (Putin & Co) are so INCREDIBLY criminal that they would have to give up power and submit to prosecution for these things to proceed.

Remember, Ukraine was denied NATO membership for reasons including domestic corruption. Russia has a pretty ghastly status in that regard.

 

[verreauxi]

The Ukraine will either be in the hands of Western matkets (which are bringing us to extinction) or in the hands of Russia.

When NATO is in Ukraine, its either nuclear war or Russia will be gone.

Why is the existence of Russia and the existence of the Ukraine mutually incompatible? This sounds like doomsday guff.