Current Affairs Irish Border and Brexit

[Harryflashman]

You made my point perfectly, and way better than I could.

Apparently now though the only option that everybody voted for is a no deal Brexit , the whole thing is beyond bizarre and I’m sorry the media have to take responsibility for not pulling them on this flip flopping .

 

[Neiler]

If you want to avoid Brexit and the border issue then, insofar as it affects NIreland/Ireland the ball is in your court to deliver an alternative outcome such as unification for example.

Brexit, as a stand alone subject, is a UK wide issue and, I know I don't need to remind you, is not the sole preserve of N Ireland and its concerns over the border.

To be fair mate, that positition hasn’t translated to reality. I think that stance was an assumption before and perhaps during Brexit negotiations from a British perspective. In reality the NI/Border situation has left the British goverment holding a deal with less worth then the one Neville Churchill agreed. So in essence if a deal is to be agreed the NI tail is currently wagging the British Dog.

The political will, of the whole of Europe at a minimum has been brought to bear on the UK over the border issue, leaving the UK with a pretty poor deal negotiated. It’s very hard for the UK just to abandon the issue and say nothing to do with us, If the UK is to have a hope for a soft Brexit, that surely is the most desirable outcome.

I know you are probably talking from a no deal, scenario, I’m 100% certain that won’t happen to be honest.

 

[Khalekan]

Your response strikes me as one coming from someone who is only considering himself and the here and now.Democracy did not arrive on our shores at no cost to human life and considerable suffering,yet you are willing to give it away just so you can gaurantee your own future in the new United States of Germany

“democracy” arrived on our shores in 1066......with a French invasion.

And that Norman class of Englishman has pretty much ruled the Anglo Saxon roost for a thousand years since.

“know yer history” applies as much to your country’s story as well as your football team’s.....it might stop you drawing silly, Corporal Jonesesque analogies.

But hey.....but if you want to indulge in little fantasies about non existent threats of “invasion” then go right ahead and man those barricades

To paraphrase Samuel Johnson......Patriotism is the last refuge of Brexit supporters unable to make any cogent economic argument as to why we should all risk our prosperity and social cohesion on the basis of a parcel of lies.

 

[Carl O'Ancelotti]

I think you are letting your Nationalism get in the way of the facts. The UK (not just England) voted for brexit. Yes, N Ireland and Scotland did not but England and Wales did and we go forward as a United Kingdom unless or until (in the case of N Ireland) you say you wish to leave the union. If you are unwilling to put that to a N Ireland/Ireland referendum and live by the outcome then you can't complain when UK comes up with a solution for you (albeit yet to be determined) that you don't like.

So, to come back to a previous post I made about the ball being in N Ireland's court, it is a case of either 'put up or shut up' I am afraid. I mean no personal offence by that but if you are so dead set against what is happening and you have the freedom to call a referendum to join the South, why do you choose to continue to complain about the actions of UK when an alternative may be available to you?

I realise that the above may come across as a bit of a blunt instrument approach and, again, I assure you I mean no personal offence, but we have to address the real issues rather than just talk our way around them.

Brexit may actually be an opportunity to solve quite a few issues.

I explained to you yesterday why there hasn't been a referendum on Irish unity thus far, and why it will now take place sooner than it otherwise would have if it wasn't for Brexit. Judging by your continual demands in this thread that "you" need to call a referendum, it would appear that you are unaware that the only person that has the authority to call such a referendum is the Secretary of State for NI, so your continual pleas that "you" should have a vote on Irish unity because "you" don't want Brexit are immaterial.

Therefore we CAN complain when the UK doesn't come up with a solution, as it is your unilateral action that has foisted this situation upon us. So your demand that we "put up or shut up" is not only wrong it is insulting in the extreme, which is in common with many of your postings since you joined this thread a few days ago.

If you want a solution here's one: abandon your vanity project and keep the status quo which has brought us peace and stability for the last 20 years.

 

[vagant59]

“democracy” arrived on our shores in 1066......with a French invasion.

And that Norman class of Englishman has pretty much ruled the Anglo Saxon roost for a thousand years since.

“know yer history” applies as much to your country’s story as well as your football team’s.....it might stop you drawing silly, Corporal Jonesesque analogies.

But hey.....but if you want to indulge in little fantasies about non existent threats of “invasion” then go right ahead and man those barricades

To paraphrase Samuel Johnson......Patriotism is the last refuge of Brexit supporters unable to make any cogent economic argument as to why we should all risk our prosperity and social cohesion on the basis of a parcel of lies.

lollollollollollol What's with the historical references and who mentioned patriotism

 

[Harryflashman]

lollollollollollol What's with the historical references and who mentioned patriotism

If it helps This guy mentioned that he was a patriot , patriotism and being patriotic in three of his posts

No to all your points because Brexit is a democratic decision for UK to leave EU.





If you are looking for help to manage Brexit that is one thing. But I don't think that is what you really want is it?





Brexit is happening and it is looking more and more likely that it will be No Deal - which is what we actually voted for in the first place. The choice was very simple In or Out. Out won!





Regarding Nationalism. Again, No. Bitter remainers really do need to learn the difference between Nationalism and Patriotism. You obviously either don't or don't want to.

No, I am a patriot and want what is best for my country, my family and their future generations. I believe the brexit that we voted for will deliver that better than any other option currently under discussion.





You haven't really declared your position with clarity yet. Are you pro brexit but want to see a particular solution for the border or totally anti brexit?

The backstop wording is vague, open ended and does not specify an end date - all conditions which are unacceptable to any patriotic UK citizen as it ties us to EU for as long as the EU wants. Put another way, rather than free us from EU it actually adds another shackle.

 

[RichardP]

To be fair mate, that positition hasn’t translated to reality. I think that stance was an assumption before and perhaps during Brexit negotiations from a British perspective. In reality the NI/Border situation has left the British goverment holding a deal with less worth then the one Neville Churchill agreed. So in essence if a deal is to be agreed the NI tail is currently wagging the British Dog.

The political will, of the whole of Europe at a minimum has been brought to bear on the UK over the border issue, leaving the UK with a pretty poor deal negotiated. It’s very hard for the UK just to abandon the issue and say nothing to do with us, If the UK is to have a hope for a soft Brexit, that surely is the most desirable outcome.

I know you are probably talking from a no deal, scenario, I’m 100% certain that won’t happen to be honest.

May's deal as it stands won't get through Parliament. I have no doubt that EU will throw her a few crumbs to present to Parliament as 'A deal in our time' (to continue the Chamberlain theme) and it then becomes an issue of how honest and true to their electorate the various ministers are. They will probably, imho, end up being presented with a binary choice beyween May's poorly negotiated deal or no deal and I think that vote may be too close to call.

Just to play devil's advocate. Remain was up in arms because of their perception of the small margin of Leave victory in the referendum but imagine the fume if No Deal was voted for by a margin of just a couple of votes.

Interesting times ahead for sure.

 

[RichardP]

I explained to you yesterday why there hasn't been a referendum on Irish unity thus far, and why it will now take place sooner than it otherwise would have if it wasn't for Brexit. Judging by your continual demands in this thread that "you" need to call a referendum, it would appear that you are unaware that the only person that has the authority to call such a referendum is the Secretary of State for NI, so your continual pleas that "you" should have a vote on Irish unity because "you" don't want Brexit are immaterial.

Therefore we CAN complain when the UK doesn't come up with a solution, as it is your unilateral action that has foisted this situation upon us. So your demand that we "put up or shut up" is not only wrong it is insulting in the extreme, which is in common with many of your postings since you joined this thread a few days ago.

If you want a solution here's one: abandon your vanity project and keep the status quo which has brought us peace and stability for the last 20 years.

And how do you think the SoS for NI will arrive at a decision to hold a referendum? By listening to public opinion. So, to those that want a referendum, get your campaign started and target the decision makers with your logic and cogent arguments.

 

[Neiler]

May's deal as it stands won't get through Parliament. I have no doubt that EU will throw her a few crumbs to present to Parliament as 'A deal in our time' (to continue the Chamberlain theme) and it then becomes an issue of how honest and true to their electorate the various ministers are. They will probably, imho, end up being presented with a binary choice beyween May's poorly negotiated deal or no deal and I think that may be too close to call.

Interesting times ahead for sure.

I agree is spirit mate.

Personally I don’t think this deal gets through Westminster. I also think all party’s know this.

May will go back to Europe and get a slightly better deal once this is voted down, the EU are already working on version 2.

Deal 2 will pass with the clock ticking and with ultimate drama and maximum tension it will pass.

Everyone saves face a bit.

The beauty of politicking.

 

[peteblue]

That presumes that the peace process and the GFA has a beginning, middle and end or is fait accompli, it very much isnt.

The domestic political situation in NI is in tatters and its worst ebb since the GFA was signed and put into practice. There hasn't been a domestic Government in NI in two years. That is being enabled by the current British Government being in collusion with the DUP.

No, it’s not. The IRA, sorry Sinn Fein, decided to walk away from government. In fact the guy that decided it has now died. A domestic government requires people to take part and not behave like children.......

 

[peteblue]

Problem is, it’s the same road. You’re playing chicken with the GFA.
I don’t care if you leave the E.U.
I do care if your actions derail the peace process.

No we are not.
The ROI and the E.U. are trying to use this as a way to stir up trouble regarding NI and the U.K. with the solution being a United Ireland. This isn’t very clever as everyone and his dog has seen through it. But as long as you’re happy then fair enough....

 

[peteblue]

Debating with you is pointless. It is like arguing with an idiot who tries to drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

In the meantime, No Deal brexit is 2 months and 22 days away.

Hahaha...you have quickly weighed him up.....

 

[peteblue]

Again no argument but it wasn’t done by mystery technology, it was done by goodwill and a willingness to talk . Physical problems are exactly that , I stand by saying that face recognition technology or advertisements for technology are the answer when people working in that field tell you it isn’t has to be folly doesn’t it ? That or something akin to religious belief and we all know that’s something that can’t be argued with .

And that’s the key point. Goodwill and willingness to talk. Both of which are missing from this debate....

 

[Neiler]

No, it’s not. The IRA, sorry Sinn Fein, decided to walk away from government. In fact the guy that decided it has now died. A domestic government requires people to take part and not behave like children.......

Ok mate, do want to explain to me how Martin McGuinness (i am presuming you are talking about) did that?

 

[peteblue]

Ok mate, do want to explain to me how Martin McGuinness (i am presuming you are talking about) did that?

Certainly. There was a government. One party threw its toys out of the pram trying to get rid of the opposition Leader, it didn’t work so they walked away and dropped its electorate right in the crap withought a voice. We are where we are....