Current Affairs Irish Border and Brexit

[Cork Evertonian]

Manners cost nothing and do nothing to further anyone's argument.

We all know and understand the make up of N Ireland but the fact of the matter is that unless, or until, N Ireland holds a referendum and votes to leave UK then it is part of UK. That includes all the benefits and consequences of being a part of the Union. Beating your chest and complaining about Brexit isn't going to achieve a thing. The only things you can do are to either move to Ireland or have a referendum on separation and get a majority vote to leave.

I do understand the concerns and am not unsympathetic but, as a part of UK, N Ireland goes where UK goes. If you don't want to be a part of UK then either take the Irish passport and cancel your UK one and move to Ireland or get a referendum organised.

I am sorry if that sounds harsh but those really are the only options.

As far as Brexit and the trade with Ireland is concerned, (which is what this thread is partially about) I hope and believe that some of the £39 billion initial saving and subsequently the savings from not paying EU membership fees will be used to assist business in N Ireland. Brexit represents a net gain in opportunity in my opinion but change can be frightening.

Manners cost nothing?I don't recall saying anything offensive to you.You say there is two solutions.1 Hold a referendum and 2 move to Ireland.While a united Ireland is something that i would like to see happen.Sadly i don't think that it would be a peaceful transition.You say that the other option is to move to Ireland.A ridiculous statement, that's worthy of the upmost contempt.It's something that a member of the DUP would come out with.There really is no point in conversing with you any further.You seem happy enough in your plastic bubble.As the old saying goes, ignorance is bliss.

 

[RichardP]

@RichardP this is a summary of your contribution to this thread in your own words;

Ireland could ask its masters in EU to endorse for them.

Manners cost nothing and do nothing to further anyone's argument.

The fact that that makes Brexit negotiations complicated should not be allowed to fudge the matter.

* I really have nothing to add to your informed contribution.

Well, if that is all you have to offer to the debate, perhaps it is best that you honour your promise in the last line of your post and do, indeed, add no more.

 

[Harryflashman]

Well, if that is all you have to offer to the debate, perhaps it is best that you honour your promise in the last line of your post and do, indeed, add no more.

You do know he was quoting you directly with masters and the manners lines ?

 

[RichardP]

Manners cost nothing?I don't recall saying anything offensive to you.You say there is two solutions.1 Hold a referendum and 2 move to Ireland.While a united Ireland is something that i would like to see happen.Sadly i don't think that it would be a peaceful transition.You say that the other option is to move to Ireland.A ridiculous statement, that's worthy of the upmost contempt.It's something that a member of the DUP would come out with.There really is no point in conversing with you any further.You seem happy enough in your plastic bubble.As the old saying goes, ignorance is bliss.

No, that's your irrational response to a logical argument that you seem to have trouble dealing with.

Look at the facts.

N Ireland is a part of the UK.
UK is leaving EU
You don't like that democratic decision because you think it can cause problems for you.
You have the free choice to surrender your UK passport if you wish
You have the free choice to move to Ireland if you wish
You have the free choice to organise a referendum if you wish.

You don't want to do any of the above 3 options.

What exactly do you want that wouldn't ride roughshod over the outcome of a democratic referendum?

 

[RichardP]

You do know he was quoting you directly with masters and the manners lines ?

And your point is?

 

[Ruairi77]

No, that's your irrational response to a logical argument that you seem to have trouble dealing with.

Look at the facts.

N Ireland is a part of the UK.
UK is leaving EU
You don't like that democratic decision because you think it can cause problems for you.
You have the free choice to surrender your UK passport if you wish
You have the free choice to move to Ireland if you wish
You have the free choice to organise a referendum if you wish.

You don't want to do any of the above 3 options.

What exactly do you want that wouldn't ride roughshod over the outcome of a democratic referendum?

Maybe an acknowledgement that Brexit is riding roughshod over one of the most constructive democratic referendums ever, anywhere.
Maybe an acknowledgement that although NI is part of the UK, it is governed in a very different way, An awareness that the majority in NI voted to remain and a large part of that was in order to maintain a fragile peace.
Since partition, the UK has always treated NI as a separate, special entity.
Allowing NI to remain in both the single market and the UK is the perfect solution. The majority in the UK get Brexit and the majority in NI get a seamless border and minimal upheaval to a fragile ecosystem.
The only reason to push against this solution is English/British nationalism.
Nationalism is a cancer.

 

[The binman chronicles]

Allowing NI to remain in both the single market and the UK is the perfect solution. The majority in the UK get Brexit and the majority in NI get a seamless border and mini

Although you are right that would be a perfect solution in an ideal world, it however has a knock on effect that would bring trouble even closer to home. If NI managed to stay in the EU then the Scots would want the same and that could end up with a hard border on mainland GB, which would be painful to say the least.

 

[Neiler]

Is the Brexit vote as it applies to Northern Ireland the epuivlant of having an All island of Ireland referendum on a United Ireland.

Hmm, self determination.

 

[Carl O'Ancelotti]

No, that's your irrational response to a logical argument that you seem to have trouble dealing with.

Look at the facts.

N Ireland is a part of the UK.
UK is leaving EU
You don't like that democratic decision because you think it can cause problems for you.
You have the free choice to surrender your UK passport if you wish
You have the free choice to move to Ireland if you wish
You have the free choice to organise a referendum if you wish.

You don't want to do any of the above 3 options.

What exactly do you want that wouldn't ride roughshod over the outcome of a democratic referendum?

You do realise the ignorance you've displayed by advising someone from Cork that they have a choice to "surrender your UK passport" and "move to Ireland" ? You do know where Cork is ?

Your black and white logic that 'NI is part of the UK + UK is leaving the EU = NI is leaving the EU' is not as straightforward as you suggest.

Firstly, as mentioned previously, NI citizens have right to retain their EU membership under an international treaty.

Secondly, if the UK leaves the EU with no agreement you will be sowing the seeds of discontent which will lead to trouble in the future. If you don't believe that you should listen to the Chief Constable of the PSNI who has stated that any scenario which threatens the national identities of people will inevitably lead to a dangerous situation. A no deal Brexit would do just that, you are playing with fire here.

And the worst part is that an arrangment between the UK and EU has been agreed in order to avoid such scenario, yet some pig-headed English nationalists are so adamant that leaving must be on their terms that they can't stomach compromise. You will only have yourselves to blame when it all goes tits up.

 

[thirdmantackle]

Is the Brexit vote as it applies to Northern Ireland the epuivlant of having an All island of Ireland referendum on a United Ireland.

Hmm, self determination.

A lot of people in the south don't want an all island Ireland
The NI economy is much weaker

 

[Ruairi77]

Although you are right that would be a perfect solution in an ideal world, it however has a knock on effect that would bring trouble even closer to home. If NI managed to stay in the EU then the Scots would want the same and that could end up with a hard border on mainland GB, which would be painful to say the least.

True, this should all have been considered before the Brexit referendum

 

[Lee Smith]

Although you are right that would be a perfect solution in an ideal world, it however has a knock on effect that would bring trouble even closer to home. If NI managed to stay in the EU then the Scots would want the same and that could end up with a hard border on mainland GB, which would be painful to say the least.

We should never have deconstructed Hadrian's Wall FFS...

 

[RichardP]

You do realise the ignorance you've displayed by advising someone from Cork that they have a choice to "surrender your UK passport" and "move to Ireland" ? You do know where Cork is ?

Your black and white logic that 'NI is part of the UK + UK is leaving the EU = NI is leaving the EU' is not as straightforward as you suggest.

Firstly, as mentioned previously, NI citizens have right to retain their EU membership under an international treaty.

Secondly, if the UK leaves the EU with no agreement you will be sowing the seeds of discontent which will lead to trouble in the future. If you don't believe that you should listen to the Chief Constable of the PSNI who has stated that any scenario which threatens the national identities of people will inevitably lead to a dangerous situation. A no deal Brexit would do just that, you are playing with fire here.

And the worst part is that an arrangment between the UK and EU has been agreed in order to avoid such scenario, yet some pig-headed English nationalists are so adamant that leaving must be on their terms that they can't stomach compromise. You will only have yourselves to blame when it all goes tits up.

No, My ancestors are actually from County Cork but just because you live somewhere doesn't mean that you are the nationality of your country of residence. If that were the case I would, at various times in my life, have been Bruneian, Singaporean and Arabic. You demonstrate one of the main failings in your argument by looking at the issue from your stand alone view point. Try expanding your horizons a little.

No Deal is actually what we voted for in the referendum. I don't recall a question on the referendum allowing us to vote for a deal. The choice was quite simple - Out or In. Out won!

Thanks for the pig headed English nationalist sobriquet. I won't descend to your level but can I suggest that you reread the referendum question paper and educate yourself on what the 2 choices were. It really isn't difficult.

 

[RichardP]

Maybe an acknowledgement that Brexit is riding roughshod over one of the most constructive democratic referendums ever, anywhere.
Maybe an acknowledgement that although NI is part of the UK, it is governed in a very different way, An awareness that the majority in NI voted to remain and a large part of that was in order to maintain a fragile peace.
Since partition, the UK has always treated NI as a separate, special entity.
Allowing NI to remain in both the single market and the UK is the perfect solution. The majority in the UK get Brexit and the majority in NI get a seamless border and minimal upheaval to a fragile ecosystem.
The only reason to push against this solution is English/British nationalism.
Nationalism is a cancer.

No to all your points because Brexit is a democratic decision for UK to leave EU.

If you are looking for help to manage Brexit that is one thing. But I don't think that is what you really want is it?

Brexit is happening and it is looking more and more likely that it will be No Deal - which is what we actually voted for in the first place. The choice was very simple In or Out. Out won!

Regarding Nationalism. Again, No. Bitter remainers really do need to learn the difference between Nationalism and Patriotism. You obviously either don't or don't want to.

 

[roydo]

The choice was quite simple - Out or In.

The reality has surely dawned on you that the choice wasnt as simple as you thought. This thread alone demonstrates that.