Current Affairs Irish Border and Brexit

[RichardP]

The reality has surely dawned on you that the choice wasnt as simple as you thought. This thread alone demonstrates that.

Unfortunately for you, the opposite is true.

The reality has not yet dawned on you that the choice really was that simple.

The execution may have a few bumps in the road, but the choice? Yes, it really was that simple and the outcome of the referendum will be respected.

 

[roydo]

Unfortunately for you, the opposite is true.

The reality has not yet dawned on you that the choice really was that simple.

Piece of cake eh? Ok.

 

[RichardP]

Piece of cake eh? Ok.

No, but certainly nowhere near as difficult as you would like to portray it as.

 

[roydo]

No, but certainly nowhere near as difficult as you would like to portray it as.

But more difficult than a simple question then? Thanks for clarifying.

 

[RichardP]

Although you are right that would be a perfect solution in an ideal world, it however has a knock on effect that would bring trouble even closer to home. If NI managed to stay in the EU then the Scots would want the same and that could end up with a hard border on mainland GB, which would be painful to say the least.

Agreed. And it would also bring about a defacto border between N Ireland and the rest of the UK down the Irish Sea. Quite simply never going to happen while N Ireland is a part of UK.

 

[RichardP]

But more difficult than a simple question then? Thanks for clarifying.

And No, again.

The choice was simple. And we chose out. You are trying to confuse and merge very different concepts and you haven't been allowed to get away with it, have you.

So, thank you for exposing your desperation and yet another failing in your logic.

 

[Neiler]

A lot of people in the south don't want an all island Ireland
The NI economy is much weaker

I’d tend to agree, don’t think it would be the landslide many would suspect but be passed strongly.

 

[roydo]

And No, again.

The choice was simple. And we chose out. You are trying to confuse and merge very different concepts and you haven't been allowed to get away with it, have you.

So, thank you for exposing your desperation and yet another failing in your logic.

Im not really. You said the choice was a simple one. I said the reality was less simple. You agreed.

 

[Walken]

Manners cost nothing and do nothing to further anyone's argument.

We all know and understand the make up of N Ireland but the fact of the matter is that unless, or until, N Ireland holds a referendum and votes to leave UK then it is part of UK. That includes all the benefits and consequences of being a part of the Union. Beating your chest and complaining about Brexit isn't going to achieve a thing. The only things you can do are to either move to Ireland or have a referendum on separation and get a majority vote to leave.

I do understand the concerns and am not unsympathetic but, as a part of UK, N Ireland goes where UK goes. If you don't want to be a part of UK then either take the Irish passport and cancel your UK one and move to Ireland or get a referendum organised.

I am sorry if that sounds harsh but those really are the only options.

As far as Brexit and the trade with Ireland is concerned, (which is what this thread is partially about) I hope and believe that some of the £39 billion initial saving and subsequently the savings from not paying EU membership fees will be used to assist business in N Ireland. Brexit represents a net gain in opportunity in my opinion but change can be frightening.

staggering statement from someone espousing to understand the situation in NI better than others including its residents

 

[Neiler]

And No, again.

The choice was simple. And we chose out. You are trying to confuse and merge very different concepts and you haven't been allowed to get away with it, have you.

So, thank you for exposing your desperation and yet another failing in your logic.

I’m not really interested in how the UK leave to be honest. A hard Brexit will bring adversity and hit the recovery of an austerity period but such is democracy.

I think you are right, if the UKs don’t want to build border, ROI don’t and the EU don’t want to, I’ve no beef really.

I suspect that equation isn’t as simplistic as it sounds, it’s one thing saying that, it’s another thing signing up formally to an agreement around it, the UK have shown no commitment to doing that by hence the reluctance of the UK to sign up to the backstop, which is essentially asking it to formally abide that commitment of not putting up a border on the Island of Ireland.

It begs the question of why the residentence of the UK. You would suspect if the backstop was agreed months ago (well it was, but reneged on by the UK) May would have an overall better deal to present to the English Dail, could be passed and a softer more ideal Brexit could have been negotiated by now. The informal narrative coming from the Uk, doesn’t match formal action.

In essence the narrative isn’t logical given the turn of events in the process and the deal the UK have been left with. If putting a border on the Island of Ireland isn’t necessary by the UK why not sign up to the back stop?

 

[RichardP]

Im not really. You said the choice was a simple one. I said the reality was less simple. You agreed.

The reality does not have to be difficult. It merely requires a modicum of common sense and goodwill. As we get closer and closer to 29/3/19 I think you will see considerably more of both than are on display at the moment.

No Deal is looking more and more likely and that is no bad thing.

Not a direct comparison I grant you but I was in Hong Kong in 1997 when UK handed the colony back to China. There was much wailing and gnashing of teeth from the indigenous population on the run up to handover, but one wise old Hong Kong resident, when asked what he thought would happen after 1997 simply responded '1998.'

How right he was!

 

[RichardP]

I’m not really interested in how the UK leave to be honest. A hard Brexit will bring adversity and hit the recovery of an austerity period but such is democracy.

I think you are right, if the UKs don’t want to build border, ROI don’t and the EU don’t want to, I’ve no beef really.

I suspect that equation isn’t as simplistic as it sounds, hence the reluctance of the UK to sign up to the backstop, which is essentially asking it to formally abide that commitment of not putting up a border on the Island of Ireland. It begs the question of why the residentence of the UK. You would suspect if the backstop was agreed months ago (well it was, but reneged on by the UK) May would have an overall better deal to present to the English Dail, could be passed and a softer more ideal Brexit could have been negotiated by now,

In essence the narrative isn’t logical given the turn of events in the process and the deal the UK have been left with. If putting a border on the Island of Ireland isn’t necessary by the UK why not sign up to the back stop?

The backstop wording is vague, open ended and does not specify an end date - all conditions which are unacceptable to any patriotic UK citizen as it ties us to EU for as long as the EU wants. Put another way, rather than free us from EU it actually adds another shackle.

 

[RichardP]

staggering statement from someone espousing to understand the situation in NI better than others including its residents

Not pretending to understand the situation better than anyone. Just trying to remind you that it is a UK wide issue and to look at it purely from the perspective of NI is to have one eye closed.

NI is one significant part of brexit but it does not, cannot and will not dictate how brexit plays out.

 

[roydo]

No Deal is looking more and more likely and that is no bad thing.

@nsno-chris

Not been reading your updates mate.

 

[Neiler]

The backstop wording is vague, open ended and does not specify an end date - all conditions which are unacceptable to any patriotic UK citizen as it ties us to EU for as long as the EU wants. Put another way, rather than free us from EU it actually adds another shackle.

I think the wording has been clarified and as you say it is open ended, but may never be used that seems logical as it’s an insurance policy. It meets many needs promotes peace, supports the GFA, formally commits the UK intent not to put a border up in Ireland, respects the democratic will of the people in the state of NI and doesn’t change sovereignty.

As you say good will is nesscary, the UK must trust Europe and vice versa to move the process along without the need for the backstop. The EU must trust the UK to formally commit that the UK fulfills it commitment of not putting a border up in a country where 50% if not more of its citizens are EU citizens. Essentially what the back stop is is the UK being asked to formalize in an agreement they seem to want when they speak informally, the reluctance to sign up to it of course raises suspicions around the UKs informal stated intentions. That could all be a negotiating stance of course.

Personally I think the plan of the UK was to have a similar deal for the whole of the UK as NI and have held out for it, to this position.

Either way NI is going to be a special case and accommodated hard or soft Brexit in all honesty.