Current Affairs Irish Border and Brexit

[RichardP]

@nsno-chris

Not been reading your updates mate.

Let's see in a few months shall we.

 

[RichardP]

I think the wording has been clarified and as you say it is open ended, but may never be used that seems logical as it’s an insurance policy. It meets many needs promotes peace, supports the GFA, formally commits the UK intent not to put a border up in Ireland, respects the democratic will of the people in the state of NI and doesn’t change sovereignty.

As you say good will is nesscary, the UK must trust Europe and vice versa to move the process along. The EU must trust the UK to formally commit that the UK fulfills it commitment of not putting a border up in a country where 50% if not more of its citizens are EU citizens. While the UK must trust the EU that the backstop would not be used to undermine the existing political situation in NI.

Personally I think the plan of the UK was to have a similar deal for the whole of the UK as NI and have held out for it, to this position.

Either way NI is going to be a special case and accommodated hard or soft Brexit in all honesty.

I agree with your sentiment but the one thing we cannot do is trust EU. We signed up to a Common Market only in 1973 with the assurance that there would never be any loss of sovereignty.

We may choose to trust EU with legally binding treaties but to put ourselves in a situation that requires goodwill from EU to extract ourselves from their clutches is foolhardy and will never, ever be allowed to happen.

 

[nsno-chris]

@nsno-chris

Not been reading your updates mate.

Yeah it’s dead simple mate, has @RichardP states you just hand over the keys and it’s business as usual.

Has I said a couple of weeks ago that contingencies were being readied and that is now in practice with Operation Brock

It’d be interesting to find out from @RichardP how No Deal would be a good thing

 

[Neiler]

I agree with your sentiment but the one thing we cannot do is trust EU. We signed up to a Common Market only in 1973 with the assurance that there would never be any loss of sovereignty.

We may choose to trust EU with legally binding treaties but to put ourselves in a situation that requires goodwill from EU to extract ourselves from their clutches is foolhardy and will never, ever be allowed to happen.

Not sure the backstop changes the soverenty situation, as you say that could be fluid in the future anyhow, if the GFA holds as the sociodemgraphics of the state continue to change.

But goodwill is nessecary to progress mate certainly at this stage, what we know is a hard Brexit hurts everyone, it’s in no ones interest to rack the UK. Supporting a soft Brexit isn’t just in the UKs interests, it’s in the U.K.s, Europe’s, Ireland’s and NIs. So if you don’t trust goodwill, you can always trust self interest.

I go back to my assertion, that the informal intent of the UK not to put a border up in Ireland, hasn’t been actioned by any formal action on their behalf.

Thus I think just saying there will be no border because the UK have said it doesn’t want one, is just chat until formally actioned, the pathway is there.

 

[Carl O'Ancelotti]

No, My ancestors are actually from County Cork but just because you live somewhere doesn't mean that you are the nationality of your country of residence. If that were the case I would, at various times in my life, have been Bruneian, Singaporean and Arabic. You demonstrate one of the main failings in your argument by looking at the issue from your stand alone view point. Try expanding your horizons a little.

No Deal is actually what we voted for in the referendum. I don't recall a question on the referendum allowing us to vote for a deal. The choice was quite simple - Out or In. Out won!

Thanks for the pig headed English nationalist sobriquet. I won't descend to your level but can I suggest that you reread the referendum question paper and educate yourself on what the 2 choices were. It really isn't difficult.

I'd guess there would be a fairly high probability, lets say around 99.9%, that someone with the username @Cork Evertonian would come from Cork, so no I don't need to expand my horizons a little as per your instruction.

You didn't vote for no deal in the referendum - it wasn't on the ballot paper.

My comments about pig-headed English nationalists was with reference to JRM, Boris Johnson, and the rest of the Tory hard right who are threatening to bring down the British government if they don't get their way. Why you have taken it personally I have no idea, but do so if you must. Nor do I need educating about the choices on the ballot paper as you suggest in a patronising and condescending manner which is typical of your ilk.

As has been said before, if you drag NI out of the EU on a no-deal basis there will be consequences for you and it will be all your own fault. But go on ignoring all the advice from people who know better than you if you must, that is why you have made such a mess of Ireland since time immemorial.

 

[RichardP]

Yeah it’s dead simple mate, has @RichardP states you just hand over the keys and it’s business as usual.

Has I said a couple of weeks ago that contingencies were being readied and that is now in practice with Operation Brock

It’d be interesting to find out from @RichardP how No Deal would be a good thing

Sure,

Instant saving of £39 billion which could be used to fund NHS, border force, and to provide transition assistance to small businesses.

Control of our borders would reduce illegal immigration, deter further attempts, reduce demand on welfare and leave more welfare payment available for those who are genuinely deserving.

No Deal also means (unlike May's deal) that we are free to trade on WTO terms with the rest of the world.

Will that do?

 

[RichardP]

I'd guess there would be a fairly high probability, lets say around 99.9%, that someone with the username @Cork Evertonian would come from Cork, so no I don't need to expand my horizons a little as per your instruction.

You didn't vote for no deal in the referendum - it wasn't on the ballot paper.

My comments about pig-headed English nationalists was with reference to JRM, Boris Johnson, and the rest of the Tory hard right who are threatening to bring down the British government if they don't get their way. Why you have taken it personally I have no idea, but do so if you must. Nor do I need educating about the choices on the ballot paper as you suggest in a patronising and condescending manner which is typical of your ilk.

As has been said before, if you drag NI out of the EU on a no-deal basis there will be consequences for you and it will be all your own fault. But go on ignoring all the advice from people who know better than you if you must, that is why you have made such a mess of Ireland since time immemorial.

Wrong again. Going by your logic my username could be @DubaiEvertonian as that is where I have lived for quite a few years! But I am not Arabic. Assumptions are dangerous things.

Wrong also about voting for No Deal. It was made clear that a Leave vote means out of everything, Customs Union, everything.

No deal will be fine for UK and the only thing that will happen after 29/3/19 (despite project fear) is 30/3/19.

 

[roydo]

Sure,

Instant saving of £39 billion which could be used to fund NHS, border force, and to provide transition assistance to small businesses.

Control of our borders would reduce illegal immigration, deter further attempts, reduce demand on welfare and leave more welfare payment available for those who are genuinely deserving.

No Deal also means (unlike May's deal) that we are free to trade on WTO terms with the rest of the world.

Will that do?

Oh blimey. You have swallowed the entire book they lobbed at you.

That said, this thread is NI Border specific, so wont bother expanding.

 

[RichardP]

Oh blimey. You have swallowed the entire book they lobbed at you.

That said, this thread is NI Border specific, so wont bother expanding.

Point taken about NI border specific but in order to assess NI border issues one must look at likely outcomes of the entire UK Brexit position to see how that may affect the NI border issue.

The 'problem' is only as complicated as people want to make it and there will come a point when all the project fear scaremongers have to reluctantly acknowledge that life will go on pretty much as normal - better in many cases.

No 'book' has been thrown at me. It is my own personal opinion, backed up by more and more professional commentators now that no deal is looking more and more likely.

 

[roydo]

Point taken about NI border specific but in order to assess NI border issues one must look at likely outcomes of the entire UK Brexit position to see how that may affect the NI border issue.

The 'problem' is only as complicated as people want to make it and there will come a point when all the project fear scaremongers have to reluctantly acknowledge that life will go on pretty much as normal - better in many cases.

I very much hope you are right, and come 30th March, everything is fine and dandy. The NI border is resolved, the supply lines are sorted, we have trade deals in place, and all the other numerous issues are resolved.

And I am sorry to say, but it is pretty complicated. If you cant see that, I cant help.

 

[nsno-chris]

Sure,

Instant saving of £39 billion which could be used to fund NHS, border force, and to provide transition assistance to small businesses.

Control of our borders would reduce illegal immigration, deter further attempts, reduce demand on welfare and leave more welfare payment available for those who are genuinely deserving.

No Deal also means (unlike May's deal) that we are free to trade on WTO terms with the rest of the world.

Will that do?

Well not really. Seeing as this is about the specific Irish Border issue I’ll keep that response short. The money saved won’t go back into the pot to find the NHS or other services, complete Jacob Rees-Mogg spin that fella.

Secondly we have control of our borders. We have full control over who enters this country from outside the EU, anyone who emigrates to UK from Europe is not illegal. So if you’re talking about the influx of Eastern European’s who come here not to work, which is true as per other EU countries, then the U.K. and others have the right to eject them from the country if they do not show any signs of contributing to the economic growth of said country. Amazing that this doesn’t get mentioned by the “our borders” group, but that’s actual EU legislation.

Third, the WTO rules. I’ve already explained in detail the complexities of WTO rules (I recommend searching for it) and secondly we will, with great likelihood, receive hefty fines from WTO for showing unfair trading practices with the EU if we leave with no deal. We don’t have the infrastructure in place and are totally unable to deal with the border checks of both EU and third country goods.

So please, try again

 

[nsno-chris]

Point taken about NI border specific but in order to assess NI border issues one must look at likely outcomes of the entire UK Brexit position to see how that may affect the NI border issue.

The 'problem' is only as complicated as people want to make it and there will come a point when all the project fear scaremongers have to reluctantly acknowledge that life will go on pretty much as normal - better in many cases.

No 'book' has been thrown at me. It is my own personal opinion, backed up by more and more professional commentators now that no deal is looking more and more likely.

No, it’s very very complicated

 

[RichardP]

I very much hope you are right, and come 30th March, everything is fine and dandy. The NI border is resolved, the supply lines are sorted, we have trade deals in place, and all the other numerous issues are resolved.

And I am sorry to say, but it is pretty complicated. If you cant see that, I cant help.

Nobody said it was easy, but neither does it need to be anywhere near as difficult as some people are trying to make it appear - invariably to suit personal/political agendas.

Common sense and goodwill will solve 99% of the problems. My gut feeling is that EU will take a back seat and leave UK and Ireland to put together a practical solution to the situation. There is much hypocrisy and inconsistency in EU policy already on various matters and I can see the Irish border issue just being added to that list.

Before anyone asks for an example, can I offer Cyprus and Serbia.

 

[RichardP]

Well not really. Seeing as this is about the specific Irish Border issue I’ll keep that response short. The money saved won’t go back into the pot to find the NHS or other services, complete Jacob Rees-Mogg spin that fella.

Secondly we have control of our borders. We have full control over who enters this country from outside the EU, anyone who emigrates to UK from Europe is not illegal. So if you’re talking about the influx of Eastern European’s who come here not to work, which is true as per other EU countries, then the U.K. and others have the right to eject them from the country if they do not show any signs of contributing to the economic growth of said country. Amazing that this doesn’t get mentioned by the “our borders” group, but that’s actual EU legislation.

Third, the WTO rules. I’ve already explained in detail the complexities of WTO rules (I recommend searching for it) and secondly we will, with great likelihood, receive hefty fines from WTO for showing unfair trading practices with the EU if we leave with no deal. We don’t have the infrastructure in place and are totally unable to deal with the border checks of both EU and third country goods.

So please, try again

We are obviously never going to agree but I am convinced, as are many big businesses (eg Wetherspoons, JCB) that no deal is a good thing and is, in fact, far better than May's Chamberlain like surrender deal.

I guess we will just have to wait and see but I have confidence in UK and its people to thrive post no deal and would suggest that others should look for and help to deliver the positive outcome rather than wallowing in project fear.

 

[Neiler]

Nobody said it was easy, but neither does it need to be anywhere near as difficult as some people are trying to make it appear - invariably to suit personal/political agendas.

Common sense and goodwill will solve 99% of the problems. My gut feeling is that EU will take a back seat and leave UK and Ireland to put together a practical solution to the situation. There is much hypocrisy and inconsistency in EU policy already on various matters and I can see the Irish border issue just being added to that list.

Before anyone asks for an example, can I offer Cyprus and Serbia.

The UK and Irish goverment have zero influence, on what sides on either side of the communities in NI might decide to do.