Current Affairs Irish Border and Brexit

[Carl O'Ancelotti]

Predictably accurate I think you will find better describes my post.

N Ireland is an independent country but also part of the UK. One thing it most definitely is not, is part of Ireland. To try to say that it is is akin to trying to say that Belgium is part of France. Just ain't so!

I do understand your point about 'either N Ireland is a separate country or it isn't but it is a complex, internal UK, matter to resolve and none of Ireland's business. For as long as N Ireland remains part of UK there will be issues where it votes on matters specific to N Ireland and matters where it votes on issues which affect all of UK. The size of the electorate is therefore either N Ireland only or all of UK depending on the issue under discussion. The referendum was a UK wide matter so the single electorate was all of UK - though I can see how separatists might try to take advantage of that situation.

I'm afraid Richard, in those bits of your post I've bolded, you have shown that you haven't the faintest idea what you are talking about with regard to this matter.

NI is "none of Ireland's business." Really ? Did you not understand the historical context I explained to you earlier as to how NI came to exist ? I suggest you keep a close eye on the next weather forecast you see on TV and you will notice a large sea area between Britain and Ireland which might cause you to alter your concept that NI is not part of Ireland.

And when you bear in mind that around half the population of NI (which was originally created by Britain to give unionism a permanent majority) consider themselves to be part of the country that through no fault of their own they are partitioned from, to say that their concerns are none of Ireland's business is so wrong it is laughable.

 

[SteveSC]

I think you might be reading more into my posts than is actually there.

Simple fact is that N Ireland is part of UK. UK is leaving EU. Ireland is part of EU. Nobody wants a border between Ireland and N Ireland. I can't see how that constitutes wanting to pick a fight with the people of N Ireland. I lived there myself for quite a while and love the place and the people.

Some people in N Ireland want to Remain, others wish to leave. Some wish to remain part of UK, others wish to join Ireland. So far, there has only been a referendum on brexit. The vote was to leave. That upsets some people who, quite rightly, point out that N Ireland as a country voted Remain. We get that, but it was a UK vote and we go forward together as a United Kingdom.

If you want a referendum on joining Ireland (and, if you win, rejoining EU) nobody is stopping you and the result would be respected.

I call that a summary of the situation 'as is' and definitely not picking a fight with anyone.

Yes, I knew when I wrote it that there would be that response from some, but it is true in the sense that if you had a referendum to leave UK it would be respected.

You just replied to me that its part of the UK and at the same time claim its independent.

It simply isn't and you are wrong on this part

A sovereign nation that is independent controls 100% of its own destiny.

Claiming that the UK will let it go if it takes a vote does not make it independent.

Going on that logic it as well as Scotland and wales then should have been able to opt out of the brexit vote or at least given the option.

Which they were not.

 

[RichardP]

I'm afraid Richard, in those bits of your post I've bolded, you have shown that you haven't the faintest idea what you are talking about with regard to this matter.

NI is "none of Ireland's business." Really ? Did you not understand the historical context I explained to you earlier as to how NI came to exist ? I suggest you keep a close eye on the next weather forecast you see on TV and you will notice a large sea area between Britain and Ireland which might cause you to alter your concept that NI is not part of Ireland.

And when you bear in mind that around half the population of NI (which was originally created by Britain to give unionism a permanent majority) consider themselves to be part of the country that through no fault of their own they are partitioned from, to say that their concerns are none of Ireland's business is so wrong it is laughable.

That is, with all due respect, your agenda driven mindset getting the better of reality.

Internal UK matters (not talking GFA) that affect only N Ireland or GB are UK business only. That does not mean isolationism or anything of the sort and I think you may have read more into statements than was there. Of course the GFA sits over both countries and I have never tried to deny that.

I was in Belfast shortly after peace broke out, spent time in N Ireland in the '80s and nobody wants to go back to the dark days of the 70's and 80's. Brexit won't take us there and nobody wants a hard border.

I think there is a lot of sabre rattling going on to be honest from a few people who would try to hijack brexit for their own ends - much like wee jimmy crankie is trying in Scotland.

 

[RichardP]

You just replied to me that its part of the UK and at the same time claim its independent.

It simply isn't and you are wrong on this part

A sovereign nation that is independent controls 100% of its own destiny.

Claiming that the UK will let it go if it takes a vote does not make it independent.

Going on that logic it as well as Scotland and wales then should have been able to opt out of the brexit vote or at least given the option.

Which they were not.

But, following your logic to conclusion, you can equally say that England is then not an independent country - as we too, are just part of a United Kingdom - which is ridiculous. You are free to set your own destiny. You just haven't decided to do it. I hope N Ireland remains part of UK but exercise your freedom, have a referendum and leave if that is the democratic wish of the majority. I will be disappointed but will respect your independent and democratic right to do so.

 

[Emlynsqueakyvoice]

Yes, I knew when I wrote it that there would be that response from some, but it is true in the sense that if you had a referendum to leave UK it would be respected.

But N Ireland is part of UK. Not part of Great Britain, but part of UK.

Ignoring England's well established imposition of 'democracy' on it's colonial subjugates, and it's endorsement of gerrymandering in the United Kingdom as late as 50 years ago, can I ask you the same question I have asked of other Brexiteers? My question is, what is your solution to the Irish border problem? Do you leave the border open, making a mockery of this 'taking back control of our borders' guff, or do you (you, not Ireland) seal the border to satisfy the Rees Moggs and Farages of the Tory far right who couldn't give a stuff about the DUP or the loyalists of the six counties? It would, of course, be built by the UK as they voted for it.

 

[Carl O'Ancelotti]

That is, with all due respect, your agenda driven mindset getting the better of reality.

Internal UK matters (not talking GFA) that affect only N Ireland or GB are UK business only. That does not mean isolationism or anything of the sort and I think you may have read more into statements than was there. Of course the GFA sits over both countries and I have never tried to deny that.

I was in Belfast shortly after peace broke out, spent time in N Ireland in the '80s and nobody wants to go back to the dark days of the 70's and 80's. Brexit won't take us there and nobody wants a hard border.

I think there is a lot of sabre rattling going on to be honest from a few people who would try to hijack brexit for their own ends - much like wee jimmy crankie is trying in Scotland.

No, with all due respect it is in fact the reality of the situation. If you can't understand that NI is part of Ireland and that its interests are very much the business of the government of the Republic then it yourself that needs a reality check. Looking at it from a blinkered unionist 'UK only' point of view is one of the reasons why it got into such mess in the first place.

 

[SteveSC]

But, following your logic to conclusion, you can equally say that England is then not an independent country - as we too, are just part of a United Kingdom - which is ridiculous. You are free to set your own destiny. You just haven't decided to do it. I hope N Ireland remains part of UK but exercise your freedom, have a referendum and leave if that is the democratic wish of the majority. I will be disappointed but will respect your independent and democratic right to do so.

You said NI was independent it isn't. By trying to turn this into some daft logic about England is disingenuous

It isn't as it does not have full control its own agenda or affairs nor does it make major decisions that relate to many things like taxation etc.... In other words their government is limited and ultimately it is controlled by Westminster.

England on the other hand is the controlling country in its own kingdom. The other countries have assemblies and restricted governance and are allowed have representatives sit and be elected to the British government.

Sure you say the other countries get a vote to leave but as it stands they are all controlled in London.

Also i am not from NI i am from Ireland. Maybe not see this about us versus them and think i have an agenda. I don't. You are factually incorrect on many points that's why i chimed in.

Also you said Ireland should not have any say on anything to NI shows you are clueless especially when it relates to its own people who live there the fact that their is an agreement that allows them to have a say and the fact that it affects our fecking border potentially cutting off our own people from moving freely.

Like i said you are so black and white that you have done nothing but backtrack anbd contradict yourself several times.

 

[RichardP]

You said NI was independent it isn't. By trying to turn this into some daft logic about England is disingenuous

It isn't as it does not have full control its own agenda or affairs nor does it make major decisions that relate to many things like taxation etc.... In other words their government is limited and ultimately it is controlled by Westminster.

England on the other hand is the controlling country in its own kingdom. The other countries have assemblies and restricted governance and are allowed have representatives sit and be elected to the British government.

Sure you say the other countries get a vote to leave but as it stands they are all controlled in London.

Also i am not from NI i am from Ireland. Maybe not see this about us versus them and think i have an agenda. I don't. You are factually incorrect on many points that's why i chimed in.

Also you said Ireland should not have any say on anything to NI shows you are clueless especially when it relates to its own people who live there the fact that their is an agreement that allows them to have a say and the fact that it affects our fecking border potentially cutting off our own people from moving freely.

Like i said you are so black and white that you have done nothing but backtrack anbd contradict yourself several times.

No, I have acknowledged the GFA and the way that both countries have an input into N Ireland via the multi party agreement and Strands 1-3 etc, etc. But, part of the GFA is for Ireland to recognise UK sovereignty of N Ireland and to withdraw its own claims on N Ireland. In return, in 1998, UK repealed the Government of Ireland Act of 1920 and agreed with Ireland that if a majority in N Ireland voted for union with Ireland then both governments would facilitate such a transition. That hasn't happened and unless or until it does, N Ireland, subject to GFA, is very much part of UK.

If it should happen then I would respect the democratic wishes of the people. I just wish they could do the same right now over brexit.

 

[RichardP]

Ignoring England's well established imposition of 'democracy' on it's colonial subjugates, and it's endorsement of gerrymandering in the United Kingdom as late as 50 years ago, can I ask you the same question I have asked of other Brexiteers? My question is, what is your solution to the Irish border problem? Do you leave the border open, making a mockery of this 'taking back control of our borders' guff, or do you (you, not Ireland) seal the border to satisfy the Rees Moggs and Farages of the Tory far right who couldn't give a stuff about the DUP or the loyalists of the six counties? It would, of course, be built by the UK as they voted for it.

I can only repeat what I said earlier. Who wants a border?

Uk doesn't, Ireland doesn't and EU doesn't.

With technological advances that have been made it should not be beyond the wit of man to instigate a system which satisfies the EU bureacrats whilst still giving seamless trade and travel between North and South. I think the only ingredient missing at the moment is goodwill and that is a shame.

 

[SteveSC]

No, I have acknowledged the GFA and the way that both countries have an input into N Ireland via the multi party agreement and Strands 1-3 etc, etc. But, part of the GFA is for Ireland to recognise UK sovereignty of N Ireland and to withdraw its own claims on N Ireland. In return, in 1998, UK repealed the Government of Ireland Act of 1920 and agreed with Ireland that if a majority in N Ireland voted for union with Ireland then both governments would facilitate such a transition. That hasn't happened and unless or until it does, N Ireland, subject to GFA, is very much part of UK.

If it should happen then I would respect the democratic wishes of the people. I just wish they could do the same right now over brexit.

So you think NI is independent though right? Again you are as confused as to what independence means.

That's the part i am debating you over. I was not disputing the GFA. I acknowledge that you did mention that.

Despite you contradicting yourself on just about everything else anyway i will leave that nonsense alone its seems others have called you on that anyway.

Going off in tangents on things that they could do or could change does not change the fact that you are wrong about how NI operates and who controls it.

 

[Emlynsqueakyvoice]

I can only repeat what I said earlier. Who wants a border?

Uk doesn't, Ireland doesn't and EU doesn't.

With technological advances that have been made it should not be beyond the wit of man to instigate a system which satisfies the EU bureacrats whilst still giving seamless trade and travel between North and South. I think the only ingredient missing at the moment is goodwill and that is a shame.

In that case you will need to read the EU in or Out thread mate. One of the posters is quite on the ball regarding the logistics etc of this Brexit 'deal' and he says that they in no way have a technological border solution, although if you know of one anywhere in the world that could be introduced on the border you may wish to inform Theresa May and her increasingly desperate friends in Downing Street. Do you have any solutions that don't involve guesswork?

 

[Carl O'Ancelotti]

No, I have acknowledged the GFA and the way that both countries have an input into N Ireland via the multi party agreement and Strands 1-3 etc, etc. But, part of the GFA is for Ireland to recognise UK sovereignty of N Ireland and to withdraw its own claims on N Ireland. In return, in 1998, UK repealed the Government of Ireland Act of 1920 and agreed with Ireland that if a majority in N Ireland voted for union with Ireland then both governments would facilitate such a transition. That hasn't happened and unless or until it does, N Ireland, subject to GFA, is very much part of UK.

If it should happen then I would respect the democratic wishes of the people. I just wish they could do the same right now over brexit.

It is also part of an all island economy and has an increasingly inter-dependent relationship with the rest of Ireland which has brought people together in recent times after 100 years of partition and division.

Brexit threatens this, that is why we are dead set against it. If you take part of Ireland with you when you sail away from the EU it will have both immediate and long-term consequences, some of which don't bear thinking about.

 

[Khalekan]

Just ignoring the fact that Welsh also voted out then?

Yeah.....like they would have made a big difference to the overall result

Anyway.....the consensus seems to be that the vote in Wales was swung by English immigrants in that country.

Make no mistake......Brexit wsa and remains all about English nationialism.

And that is a nasty little beast.

 

[RichardP]

It is also part of an all island economy and has an increasingly inter-dependent relationship with the rest of Ireland which has brought people together in recent times after 100 years of partition and division.

Brexit threatens this, that is why we are dead set against it. If you take part of Ireland with you when you sail away from the EU it will have both immediate and long-term consequences, some of which don't bear thinking about.

You are posting opnion as fact. There are many that disagree with your opinion.

I understand your concerns but I think you are going the wrong way about addressing them. If you are so set on staying with Ireland, have your referendum. If you stay with UK then I would suggest that your energy would be better used on making a success of brexit. It is happening.

 

[RichardP]

In that case you will need to read the EU in or Out thread mate. One of the posters is quite on the ball regarding the logistics etc of this Brexit 'deal' and he says that they in no way have a technological border solution, although if you know of one anywhere in the world that could be introduced on the border you may wish to inform Theresa May and her increasingly desperate friends in Downing Street. Do you have any solutions that don't involve guesswork?

I believe that there are technical solutions but political posturing is either suppressing them or rendering them unneccesarrily unworkable - hence my comment about the missing ingredient being goodwill.