Current Affairs Irish Border and Brexit

[Carl O'Ancelotti]

How far back in history do you want to go?

Ireland's history, and UK involvement in it, goes back a lot further than 1918.

Yes I know that but the result of the 1918 GE was a pivotal point which was the basis of everything that has happened since. Before that Ireland was treated as one country both prior to and following the establishment of the UK in 1801.

The British government's response to the GE result was firstly to ignore it which caused the War of Independence to kick off and then to partition the country as a way of settlement. In the century since then it has done anything but that; instead it has caused division and resentment which has led to the loss of many lives.

So here we are 100 years on and the partition which was imposed on Ireland is frustrating the UK's attempts to leave the EU on the terms it wants. Kind of ironic isn't it ? Already before Brexit even happens this has led to the cooling of Anglo-Irish relations which had improved enormously over the 20 years since the GFA in 1998. Post-Brexit it is anyone's guess what might happen. Notwithstanding the very likely economic impact it will have on both jurisdictions, it could also threaten the treasured peace which has has been carefully nurtured. Yet Brexiteers like JRM, backed up by the DUP, tell us there is nothing to worry about and all will be OK because there will be no border. They have lied before so it is no surprise that they cannot be trusted not to be lying again.

 

[RichardP]

No body will, there will be no need for a border as both NI and the RoI will be in the same market.

And if/when we leave with no deal???

 

[RichardP]

Yes I know that but the result of the 1918 GE was a pivotal point which was the basis of everything that has happened since. Before that Ireland was treated as one country both prior to and following the establishment of the UK in 1801.

The British government's response to the GE result was firstly to ignore it which cause the War of Independence to kick off and then to partition the country as a way of settlement. In the century since then it has done anything but that; instead it has caused division and resentment which has led to the loss of many lives.

So here we are 100 years on and the partition which was imposed on Ireland is frustrating the UK's attempts to leave the EU on the terms it wants. Kind of ironic isn't it ? Already before Brexit even happens this has led to the cooling of Anglo-Irish relations which had improved enormously over the 20 years since the GFA in 1998. Post-Brexit it is anyone's guess what might happen. Notwithstanding the very likely economic impact it will have on both jurisdictions, it could also threaten the treasured peace which has has been carefully nurtured. Yet Brexiteers like JRM, backed up by the DUP, tell us there is nothing to worry about and all will be OK because there will be no border. They have lied before so it is no surprise that they cannot be trusted not to be lying again.

I can't see any souring of relations between UK and Ireland reaching the stage where we get back to the violence of the 70's and 80's.

What I can see is Ireland getting peed off with EU as it is asked to contribute more € (or rather, receive less €) as the EU has to tighten its belt - not just as a result of UK leaving but also because of new, poorer, counties joining the EU. I think UK leaving could be the start of the financial collapse of EU.

Most (almost all) pro brexit people are not anti Europe (quite the contrary in fact) but we are very anti EU.

 

[Ruairi77]

And if/when we leave with no deal???

NI would get tied up in legal challenges for years, the status quo would remain until the British government has the all clear to steam roll over the GFA.
Of course by this time, there'll be a new GE and government and if the UK still decides to leave, the back stop will be honored and NI will remain in the single marked.
Northern Ireland voted for the GFA. Self determination...

 

[Armaghtoffee]

I am not sure that your second para will apply if/when we leave with no deal.

Your first para is inaccurate. If you read my earlier posts you will see that I have already suggested that in a couple of generations there may well be a majority in the North wishing to unite with the South. If there is a referendum and that is the outcome then it must be respected and acted on - just as the brexit referendum must be respected and acted upon now.

Your knowledge of British history is either limited or blind.

 

[Ruairi77]

Most (almost all) pro brexit people are not anti Europe (quite the contrary in fact) but we are very anti EU.

are you trying to say that you're reasonable because you are not anti a geographical landmass?

 

[RichardP]

Your knowledge of British history is either limited or blind.

Please, do educate me. I am listening. What have I said that is factually inaccurate. Please feel free to quote any of my posts.

I'm listening.

 

[RichardP]

are you trying to say that you're reasonable because you are not anti a geographical landmass?

Now, you are being deliberately anal.

We are very pro Europe in that we believe in a free and friendly association of independent sovereign nations, free to make their own laws, control their own borders and run their own currency.

It's an old fashioned concept I grant you, but still very true that 'tall fences make for good neighbours!'

There, I spelled it out for you.

 

[Ruairi77]

We are very pro Europe in that we believe in a free and friendly association of independent sovereign nations, free to make their own laws, control their own borders and run their own currency.
There, I spelled it out for you.

Right, so rather than being pro Europe and anti EU, you are pro the end of the EU and anti EU

 

[Ruairi77]

Please, do educate me. I am listening. What have I said that is factually inaccurate. Please feel free to quote any of my posts.

I'm listening.

You might not be aware that even after the hardest of hard Brexits, everyone from Northern Ireland will still be entitled to become European citizens and remain where they are living.

 

[Armaghtoffee]

Please, do educate me. I am listening. What have I said that is factually inaccurate. Please feel free to quote any of my posts.

I'm listening.

You said England supported the right to self determination and you were given an example that just simply hasn’t been the case. You quoted the Falklands and @Mark O'Silver gave another political reference with the 1918 GE.

What more education do you need? What you are asking me to do has already been done for you by another poster.

 

[Carl O'Ancelotti]

You said England supported the right to self determination and you were given an example that just simply hasn’t been the case. You quoted the Falklands and @Mark O'Silver gave another political reference with the 1918 GE.

What more education do you need? What you are asking me to do has already been done for you by another poster.

Another example of colonising part of a country and then claiming that the colonists are entitled to 'self-determination' separately from the rest of the country they were part of.

As you suggested earlier AT it only applies when it suits them.

 

[Armaghtoffee]

Another example of colonising part of a country and then claiming that the colonists are entitled to 'self-determination' separately from the rest of the country they were part of.

As you suggested earlier AT it only applies when it suits them.

It fits in nicely with the Tory narrative that their Brexit woes are stemming from the Irish and wider foreign foes. It is disappointing to this this type of rhetoric is getting both mainstream publicity and acceptance.

 

[RichardP]

It fits in nicely with the Tory narrative that their Brexit woes are stemming from the Irish and wider foreign foes. It is disappointing to this this type of rhetoric is getting both mainstream publicity and acceptance.

I think you might be letting your agenda and lack of impartiality blind you to fairness and true self determination. The fact of the matter is that more than 50% of the north wish to remain part of UK. UK is leaving EU. Ireland is (for now) part of EU. Normally that would require a hard border but UK doesn't want one, Ireland doesn't want one and EU can't/won't insist on one.

Where is the inconsistency with self determination and/or GFA in that please?

 

[Gwladysstreetlad]

The English.

After all, it was their great idea to subject the Irish to it in the first place.....and it was their Brexit vote which has made it a hot potatoe again.

The English own it,...let them pay for it.

Just ignoring the fact that Welsh also voted out then?