Current Affairs Irish Border and Brexit

[RichardP]

Another example of colonising part of a country and then claiming that the colonists are entitled to 'self-determination' separately from the rest of the country they were part of.

As you suggested earlier AT it only applies when it suits them.

Northern Ireland and Ireland are 2 separate countries. We have to respect the majority wishes of each country insofar as they vote in matters pertaining to their own country.

It's not a difficult concept to grasp.

 

[Carl O'Ancelotti]

Northern Ireland and Ireland are 2 separate countries. We have to respect the majority wishes of each country insofar as they vote in matters pertaining to their own country.

It's not a difficult concept to grasp.

Are they ? So in respecting the majority wishes of each country with regard to how they voted, you will be respecting the wishes of the population of NI who voted by a decisive majority to remain in the EU ?

No, I thought not. It's 'make it up as you go along' democracy you engage in and always have done.

 

[Armaghtoffee]

I think you might be letting your agenda and impartiality blind you to fairness and true self determination. The fact of the matter is that more than 50% of the north wish to remain part of UK. UK is leaving EU. Ireland is (for now) part of EU. Normally that would require a hard border but UK doesn't want one, Ireland doesn't want one and EU can't/won't insist on one.

Where is the inconsistency with self determination and/or GFA in that please?

The inconsistency was in your broad sweeping statement of England supporting the right of self determination which history has shown that this simply is incorrect.

My impartiality “might blind me to fairness” is again another generalist sweeping statement. Northern Ireland voted to remain in the EU and even in the event of a no deal, each and everyone of us has the right to declare as a citizen of the EU. This has been ignored by your government as they instead choose to use a minority party to cling onto power for their own political will.

There is really little if any chance of NI joining the rest of the U.K. in the terms of their Brexit.

 

[Armaghtoffee]

Northern Ireland and Ireland are 2 separate countries. We have to respect the majority wishes of each country insofar as they vote in matters pertaining to their own country.

It's not a difficult concept to grasp.

I seriously cannot believe you walked into that lol.

Their goes your self determination bluster out the window right there.

 

[RichardP]

Are they ? So in respecting the majority wishes of each country with regard to how they voted, you will be respecting the wishes of the population of NI who voted by a decisive majority to remain in the EU ?

No, I thought not. It's 'make it up as you go along' democracy you engage in and always have done.

No Mark, It was always made clear that the referendum on brexit was a UK wide vote. I'm sure I don't need to remind you that UK consists of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and that the majority vote was for Brexit.

The fact that we are leaving the EU as one country when, in fact, we are 4 United Countries can appear strange I grant you. But a challenge does not stand up to scrutiny. It was made clear beforehand that the referendum was a UK wide referendum and the decision would affect the entire UK.

Rather perversely, you actually strengthen the Brexit argument for England and Wales by tacitly suggesting that if we discount the N Ireland (and Scottish?) vote then the referendum result would maybe have been as convincing as 70/30? But what then? Rebuild Hadrian's wall, strip those in N Ireland and Scotland of UK citizenship, cancel all the subsidies paid to N Ireland and Scotland from London, dismiss all N Irish and Scottish MP's from Westminster? A hard border between England and Scotland?

No Mark, We are a United Kingdom and for as long as the people of England, Scotland, Wales and N Ireland wish that state of affairs to continue, we will go forward together.

 

[RichardP]

I seriously cannot believe you walked into that lol.

Their goes your self determination bluster out the window right there.

Northern Ireland and Ireland are 2 separate countries. We do respect the majority wish of each country to affect their own destiny. As yet, there has been no referendum in N Ireland with a majority vote to join Ireland and leave UK.

When or if there is, it will be respected. But it hasn't happened has it!

Your post is full of dogma and no substance.

 

[RichardP]

The inconsistency was in your broad sweeping statement of England supporting the right of self determination which history has shown that this simply is incorrect.

My impartiality “might blind me to fairness” is again another generalist sweeping statement. Northern Ireland voted to remain in the EU and even in the event of a no deal, each and everyone of us has the right to declare as a citizen of the EU. This has been ignored by your government as they instead choose to use a minority party to cling onto power for their own political will.

There is really little if any chance of NI joining the rest of the U.K. in the terms of their Brexit.

If you want to get into domestic politics and my opinion of May then I believe we have much upon which to agree. She is a duplicitous, toxic woman who is no good for either her party or her country and it was a mistake of gigantic proportions to let her lead the UK through brexit.

That said, we have to play the hand we have been dealt and I believe there is now a better than 50/50 chance of No Deal which, imho, is a far better prospect than May's crock of the proverbial.

No deal would obviously leave issues to be dealt with between UK and Ireland but I don't see any issues that can't be resolved by a modicum of goodwill and a bilateral prospective agreement which Ireland could ask its masters in EU to endorse for them.

 

[Carl O'Ancelotti]

No Mark, It was always made clear that the referendum on brexit was a UK wide vote. I'm sure I don't need to remind you that UK consists of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and that the majority vote was for Brexit.

The fact that we are leaving the EU as one country when, in fact, we are 4 United Countries can appear strange I grant you. But a challenge does not stand up to scrutiny. It was made clear beforehand that the referendum was a UK wide referendum and the decision would affect the entire UK.

Rather perversely, you actually strengthen the Brexit argument for England and Wales by tacitly suggesting that if we discount the N Ireland (and Scottish?) vote then the referendum result would maybe have been as convincing as 70/30? But what then? Rebuild Hadrian's wall, strip those in N Ireland and Scotland of UK citizenship, cancel all the subsidies paid to N Ireland and Scotland from London, dismiss all N Irish and Scottish MP's from Westminster? A hard border between England and Scotland?

No Mark, We are a United Kingdom and for as long as the people of England, Scotland, Wales and N Ireland wish that state of affairs to continue, we will go forward together.

A predictable response which totally contradicts your assertion that "Northern Ireland and Ireland are 2 separate countries. We have to respect the majority wishes of each country insofar as they vote in matters pertaining to their own country."

Either NI is a separate country or it isn't. Firstly you state that it is, then you state that no, it is actually part of another one. In this case the second version suits your Brexit agenda better so you are running with that one.

The fact is, that although it is constitutionally a separate jurisdiction, NI is part of Ireland. Nothing can change that other than another Ice Age. And until you respect the wishes of the people that live there to remain EU citizens as provided for under an international agreement, you are on a road to nowhere.

As for the rest of your post about strengthening the Brexit argument for England and Wales, we're not that bothered this side of the Irish Sea as long as you don't take part of our country with you. Hence the backstop being in place to ensure that this doesn't happen.

 

[Armaghtoffee]

Northern Ireland and Ireland are 2 separate countries. We do respect the majority wish of each country to affect their own destiny. As yet, there has been no referendum in N Ireland with a majority vote to join Ireland and leave UK.

When or if there is, it will be respected. But it hasn't happened has it!

Your post is full of dogma and no substance.

No mate you are flip flopping over when NI should be allowed to decide it’s own political future and when it shouldn’t.

As I said initially, self determination whenever it suits U.K. political interests.

 

[Professor Toffee]

Come friendly bombs and fall on slough

 

[SteveSC]

Northern Ireland and Ireland are 2 separate countries. We do respect the majority wish of each country to affect their own destiny. As yet, there has been no referendum in N Ireland with a majority vote to join Ireland and leave UK.

When or if there is, it will be respected. But it hasn't happened has it!

Your post is full of dogma and no substance.

Jaysus what made you wake up one morning and decide to pick a fight with natives of Northern Ireland on this forum about how they see themselves and the current situation affecting their own land and people.

Talk about black and white talk on a subject than over the 180 plus pages you were not involved in discussing, it has been established that its been anything but this over the course of the brexit talks and well history of NI.

 

[RichardP]

A predictable response which totally contradicts your assertion that "Northern Ireland and Ireland are 2 separate countries. We have to respect the majority wishes of each country insofar as they vote in matters pertaining to their own country."

Either NI is a separate country or it isn't. Firstly you state that it is, then you state that no, it is actually part of another one. In this case the second version suits your Brexit agenda better so you are running with that one.

The fact is, that although it is constitutionally a separate jurisdiction, NI is part of Ireland. Nothing can change that other than another Ice Age. And until you respect the wishes of the people that live there to remain EU citizens as provided for under an international agreement, you are on a road to nowhere.

As for the rest of your post about strengthening the Brexit argument for England and Wales, we're not that bothered this side of the Irish Sea as long as you don't take part of our country with you. Hence the backstop being in place to ensure that this doesn't happen.

Predictably accurate I think you will find better describes my post.

N Ireland is an independent country but also part of the UK. One thing it most definitely is not, is part of Ireland. To try to say that it is is akin to trying to say that Belgium is part of France. Just ain't so!

I do understand your point about 'either N Ireland is a separate country or it isn't but it is a complex, internal UK, matter to resolve and none of Ireland's business. For as long as N Ireland remains part of UK there will be issues where it votes on matters specific to N Ireland and matters where it votes on issues which affect all of UK. The size of the electorate is therefore either N Ireland only or all of UK depending on the issue under discussion. The referendum was a UK wide matter so the single electorate was all of UK - though I can see how separatists might try to take advantage of that situation.

 

[SteveSC]

Predictably accurate I think you will find better describes my post.

N Ireland is an independent country but also part of the UK. .

Just on this alone you should stop.

This is not even 1% accurate.

Do yourself a favor and read about its history and current standing.

Do you even know what independent means?

The government in NI has limited control and is ultimately controlled by the British government.

 

[RichardP]

Jaysus what made you wake up one morning and decide to pick a fight with natives of Northern Ireland on this forum about how they see themselves and the current situation affecting their own land and people.

Talk about black and white talk on a subject than over the 180 plus pages you were not involved in discussing, it has been established that its been anything but this over the course of the brexit talks and well history of NI.

I think you might be reading more into my posts than is actually there.

Simple fact is that N Ireland is part of UK. UK is leaving EU. Ireland is part of EU. Nobody wants a border between Ireland and N Ireland. I can't see how that constitutes wanting to pick a fight with the people of N Ireland. I lived there myself for quite a while and love the place and the people.

Some people in N Ireland want to Remain, others wish to leave. Some wish to remain part of UK, others wish to join Ireland. So far, there has only been a referendum on brexit. The vote was to leave. That upsets some people who, quite rightly, point out that N Ireland as a country voted Remain. We get that, but it was a UK vote and we go forward together as a United Kingdom.

If you want a referendum on joining Ireland (and, if you win, rejoining EU) nobody is stopping you and the result would be respected.

I call that a summary of the situation 'as is' and definitely not picking a fight with anyone.

 

[RichardP]

Just on this alone you should stop.

This is not even 1% accurate.

Do yourself a favor and read about its history and current standing.

Do you even know what independent means?

The government in NI has limited control and is ultimately controlled by the British government.

Yes, I knew when I wrote it that there would be that response from some, but it is true in the sense that if you had a referendum to leave UK it would be respected.

But N Ireland is part of UK. Not part of Great Britain, but part of UK.