Current Affairs Ukraine

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Sorry in response to you asking about diplomacy, the reply was
"Mate I don't think Putin gives a FF about diplomacy".

You said "I think he does".

You're right, he is abhorrent. The whole set up in Russia is one of dictatorship and totalitarianism. He's on an ego power trip. A complete loon. You wouldn't trust him to blow out a candle.
Yes, I think he cares about diplomacy if it means he gets what he wants. That’s for negotiators to explore and perhaps it’s impossible to deliver without serious successions on NATO’s/Ukraine’s side, which is why I said before it’s all about how willing either side is to bend. In my opinion, though, it’s the only way we will achieve ceasefire without becoming aggressors.

I don’t think anything I’ve written up until now can be taken as sympathetic towards Putin and Russia. I think you’ve misunderstood.
 
The issue with Putin is I don’t even think he knows exactly what his end game is in this situation. (I was going to reply to a previous post but this thread moves so quickly it’s tough to keep up).

Diplomacy works if there is an actual clear outcome. Putin has moved the goalposts constantly. He keeps on asking for different things so how do you negotiate with someone like that. Does he want to “de-nazify” Ukraine (which is laughable)? Does he want to demilitiraze Ukraine? Does he want the Donbas to become independent or to take it into Russia? Does he want Ukraine to say they will never join NATO or the EU? These are conversations which will have to be had now but pre war it wasn’t clear exactly what his aim were. So how do you deal with that diplomatically?
Yeah that’s a really good point. I agree, I don’t think he does know his end goal. He’s almost pushing to see how far he can go.

If I had to say just taking bits and pieces I’ve read etc, this is more about separating NATO involvement with ex-soviet countries (Ukraine being geographically important) and he probably wants assurances that they will stay independent of NATO and the EU. Whether that is or would be enough to prevent war, I’m not sure. There are probably other conditions attached involving Crimea and the eastern ‘independent’ states of Ukraine.

The thing is, all of these issues will most likely need to be addressed at some point for war to end and concessions on either side will have to be made.
 
Yeah that’s a really good point. I agree, I don’t think he does know his end goal. He’s almost pushing to see how far he can go.

If I had to say just taking bits and pieces I’ve read etc, this is more about separating NATO involvement with ex-soviet countries (Ukraine being geographically important) and he probably wants assurances that they will stay independent of NATO and the EU. Whether that is or would be enough to prevent war, I’m not sure. There are probably other conditions attached involving Crimea and the eastern ‘independent’ states of Ukraine.

The thing is, all of these issues will most likely need to be addressed at some point for war to end and concessions on either side will have to be made.
The thing REALLY is. The whole planet is just coming out of a Global epidemic, and people just want to get their lives back on track. Putin seems to want to destroy that for no reason.
 
The issue with Putin is I don’t even think he knows exactly what his end game is in this situation. (I was going to reply to a previous post but this thread moves so quickly it’s tough to keep up).

Diplomacy works if there is an actual clear outcome. Putin has moved the goalposts constantly. He keeps on asking for different things so how do you negotiate with someone like that. Does he want to “de-nazify” Ukraine (which is laughable)? Does he want to demilitarize Ukraine? Does he want the Donbas to become independent or to take it into Russia? Does he want Ukraine to say they will never join NATO or the EU? These are conversations which will have to be had now but pre war it wasn’t clear exactly what his aim were. So how do you deal with that diplomatically?

His end game has changed dramatically. It’s now about staying alive and trying to keep hold of power…..
 
The issue with Putin is I don’t even think he knows exactly what his end game is in this situation. (I was going to reply to a previous post but this thread moves so quickly it’s tough to keep up).

Diplomacy works if there is an actual clear outcome. Putin has moved the goalposts constantly. He keeps on asking for different things so how do you negotiate with someone like that. Does he want to “de-nazify” Ukraine (which is laughable)? Does he want to demilitarize Ukraine? Does he want the Donbas to become independent or to take it into Russia? Does he want Ukraine to say they will never join NATO or the EU? These are conversations which will have to be had now but pre war it wasn’t clear exactly what his aim were. So how do you deal with that diplomatically?
The first paragraph is more or less how negotiation works. You're not supposed to fixate on an ideal point. You're supposed to have a range.

It helps, if you're trying to land in that range in bargaining, if everyone else has some idea where that range is. (This is what your second paragraph is getting at.) That doesn't generally lead to a better bargain, but it makes obtaining a bargain more likely. Concealing preferences tends to lead to advantage if a bargain obtains, but also tends to make the bargain less likely to obtain.

What I think has happened here is that Putin has learned, through experience, that concealing his preferences tends to lead to better outcomes. He now has little idea about what to do when he is in a situation where he is probably better off cutting a deal sooner rather than later. As is so common in sequential international crises, he has learned that escalation tends to lead to better outcomes than forthright bargaining. He therefore is reading from the wrong playbook when dealing with opposition that no longer will back down from further escalation.
 
And what will he do if Putin steams into one of the Baltic states and again Russia, via Kaliningrad, threatens nuclear weaponry…He screwed up Afghanistan, there is absolutely no way he would get involved with China/Taiwan, so why would anyone believe that he would do anything for any other country other than the USA.…..

Do you honestly believe that he would risk nuclear war for Estonia, Latvia or Lithuania ?….

Someone stating the obvious here...i applaud you ;)

Said the exact same myself...
Biden really stepping up to the mark …not. Have we ever seen such a lightweight President of the USA. I know that most on here are Democrat voters but ffs this guy is a pure waste of space……

101% hes a ghost.
 
The issue with Putin is I don’t even think he knows exactly what his end game is in this situation. (I was going to reply to a previous post but this thread moves so quickly it’s tough to keep up).

Diplomacy works if there is an actual clear outcome. Putin has moved the goalposts constantly. He keeps on asking for different things so how do you negotiate with someone like that. Does he want to “de-nazify” Ukraine (which is laughable)? Does he want to demilitarize Ukraine? Does he want the Donbas to become independent or to take it into Russia? Does he want Ukraine to say they will never join NATO or the EU? These are conversations which will have to be had now but pre war it wasn’t clear exactly what his aim were. So how do you deal with that diplomatically?
I'm sure he does have a clear plan of what he wants. He is not letting people know, and blindsiding them by making various statements, but that is all just part of his negotiating tactics. We (as in the general public) will have no clue what he really wants, but Putin will be crystal clear
 
Yes, I think he cares about diplomacy if it means he gets what he wants. That’s for negotiators to explore and perhaps it’s impossible to deliver without serious successions on NATO’s/Ukraine’s side, which is why I said before it’s all about how willing either side is to bend. In my opinion, though, it’s the only way we will achieve ceasefire without becoming aggressors.

I don’t think anything I’ve written up until now can be taken as sympathetic towards Putin and Russia. I think you’ve misunderstood.
He has a knife and his hand in your mate's pocket with his wallet. So you tell your mate to give him the wallet? At some point, we need the police. But Putin vetos UN, so that only leaves Nato...
 
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