Your Time Is Gonna Come

[Allezfan]

It's a false distinction anyway.

There's no evidence that losing cup games means you do better in the league. hence why the same teams tend to win both and our season unravelled after fiorentina but we were revitalised by our two fa cup runs.

 

[Brennan]

It's a false distinction anyway.

There's no evidence that losing cup games means you do better in the league. hence why the same teams tend to win both and our season unravelled after fiorentina but we were revitalised by our two fa cup runs.

And the other thing which people haven't addressed.

If we were to reach the group stages of the Champions League, then surely the argument that missing out on cup competitions is good because it cuts down the number of games you play is moot ?

Say we finish 4th. We can't guarantee we'd qualify for the Champions League proper, so without selling players we wouldn't be able to risk improving the squad significantly.

Then lets say we reach the group stages. Ace ! But we now have to play six extra games, three of which could be on the other side of the continent, and that's before you even get out of the group.

If we don't have a squad big enough to compete in domestic cups and the league, surely it's pointless to get into the CL. No ?

 

[paulbefc]

Boom. Because erm, they don't put out a full strength side ? Oh wait.

Chelsea vs Leeds

• 01 Cech
• 02 Ivanovic
• 04 David Luiz
• 28 Azpilicueta
• 34 Bertrand
• 08 Lampard
• 10 Mata
• 11 Oscar
• 13 Moses
• 21 Marin
• 09 Torres

Arsenal v Bradford

• 01 Szczesny
• 03 Sagna
• 04 Mertesacker
• 05 Vermaelen
• 28 Gibbs
• 10 Wilshere
• 16 Ramsey
• 19 Cazorla
• 22 Coquelin
• 09 Podolski
• 27 Gervinho

They seem pretty strong to me...

Obviously there is huge pressure on Arsenal to win a trophy because it's embarrassing for them not to have, given the quality of their side and they need to satisfy the fans sharpish. Sure, that's pretty strong with a few players rotated, but if they had a big CL game a few days later you wouldn't see Torres, Mata or Oscar out there. In fact, the Champions league had stopped at that point so those squads are quite conveniently chosen. I don't think it's up for debate that CL clubs put the CL way, way before domestic honours anyway?

 

[Brennan]

Obviously there is huge pressure on Arsenal to win a trophy because it's embarrassing for them not to have, given the quality of their side and they need to satisfy the fans sharpish. Sure, that's pretty strong with a few players rotated, but if they had a big CL game a few days later you wouldn't see Torres, Mata or Oscar out there. In fact, the Champions league had stopped at that point so those squads are quite conveniently chosen. I don't think it's up for debate that CL clubs put the CL way, way before domestic honours anyway?

Nope, but that's not the debate.

You can easily go back and look at the squads which recent winners of both cup competitions have fielded, they're pretty much always full strength or close to it. Because of that, they're clearly not easy to win. I think some Blues are deluded if they think we have the luxury of acting like we're 'better' than the FA and League Cup. We've won nothing in nearly two decades. Nothing.

 

[PeterMeter]

It's utter crap. Winning a trophy is winning a trophy, it always feels boss, and it's always an achievement. By some of the logic used in this thread players should only care about winning the World Cup. After all, it's the hardest to win and thus makes all the others pale into insignificance. Right ?

I bet players like Ronaldo and Messi don't care about winning the Champions League, it's the World Cup that matters. The CL trophy is just a bit of metal.FFS.

I'd say for more stability, in regards to where we are now in terms of board - squad - manager, the focus should be on securing 4th before we think about the fa cup. The increase in revenue and stature that would come with it will mean we can build for a prolonged challenge. Arsenal who have been an on-the-verge-team for so long should've put a team out to secure a trophy years ago if only to give the fans something back. They've had the class in their squad to make it through a CL Group Phase and still have a good cup run for years now, and should've probably prioritized differently along the road since they were never going to win that trophy after missing out in that final vs Barca.

For Wenger it must be frustrating now facing critiques among his own for not winning anything for 7 years because they had other goals.

With Moyes I'd expect a lot to depend on if he is here to build on what he's achieved so far or if he's leaving after this season. For his own ambitions I'd expect a trophy to weigh heavier than a top 4 placing as he's already done that, with a imho lesser squad. If he's looking to build on though, I'd expect a race for 4th, which would generate further money towards replacing some ageing players (Neville, Distin, Osman, Pienaar, Hibbert) give us a chance to qualify for the group phase and then maybe go for a trophy the following season when we have better width/depth.

 

[paulbefc]

The last trophy Spurs won was in 1991. Arsenal have gone 8 years or something (God I hope that's right). What's this all about them being able to win trophies mate?

Spurs did win the Carling Cup in 2008 I think or 07, not sure. Christ, if neither Arsenal nor Spurs aren't able to win a trophy, God help everyone else. I think you're right about Arsenal, 2005 FA cup, I think. Like I say, I don't think you'd be wise to bet against them winning something relatively soon.

 

[electricblue]

The last trophy Spurs won was in 1991. Arsenal have gone 8 years or something (God I hope that's right). What's this all about them being able to win trophies mate?

They won the League Cup 3 or 4 years ago.

 

[Brennan]

They won the League Cup 3 or 4 years ago.

And 1999 too.

 

[Librarian]

Jaysus this winning is fierce complicated. Sure you don't know what to hate

 

[Elong]

Spurs did win the Carling Cup in 2008 I think or 07, not sure. Christ, if neither Arsenal nor Spurs aren't able to win a trophy, God help everyone else. I think you're right about Arsenal, 2005 FA cup, I think. Like I say, I don't think you'd be wise to bet against them winning something relatively soon.

I knew it wasn't right, a quick google didn't help me either. They should in theory both win something soon too I agree, but I think we're moving away from the main point, which I guess is either a trophy or 4th (we couldn't do both could we?). Like I say, given the choice, trophy all day for me.

 

[Elong]

And 1999 too.

ALRIGHT LAD I SAID I WAS WRONG






x

 

[electricblue]

And 1999 too.

Yep, forgot about that one, terrible game.

 

[paulbefc]

Nope, but that's not the debate.

You can easily go back and look at the squads which recent winners of both cup competitions have fielded, they're pretty much always full strength or close to it. Because of that, they're clearly not easy to win. I think some Blues are deluded if they think we have the luxury of acting like we're 'better' than the FA and League Cup. We've won nothing in nearly two decades. Nothing.

Who's said that? I am not even bother going to go back to my original very clear and not overly dissimilar to anyone else's stance on the matter because it keeps ending up being twisted into something that it isn't with indirect, vague and incorrect idea that we/I don't care about cups. F*cking ludicrous and fiction and I don't remember anyone else saying that. This isn't really a debate, let's face it. It's just going round in circles because every few posts someone will try and score imaginary points by saying something like " you think they're all just bits of metal though". "you must be deluded/insane/maybe if you'd seen the 80s you'd get" it etc etc and it'll get nowhere.

I think anyone who dared support Moyes last year had their sanity questioned weekly on here by people who've posted in this thread in "debates", so I guess deluded isn't quite so bad, like.

 

[Brennan]

Who's said that? I am not even bother going to go back to my original very clear and not overly dissimilar to anyone else's stance on the matter because it keeps ending up being twisted into something that it isn't with indirect, vague and incorrect idea that we/I don't care about cups. F*cking ludicrous and fiction and I don't remember anyone else saying that. This isn't really a debate, let's face it. It's just going round in circles because every few posts someone will try and score imaginary points by saying something like " you think they're all just bits of metal though". "you must be deluded/insane/maybe if you'd seen the 80s you'd get" it etc etc and it'll get nowhere.

I think anyone who dared support Moyes last year had their sanity questioned weekly on here by people who've posted in this thread in "debates", so I guess deluded isn't quite so bad, like.

Tubey said that anybody over the age of 30 doesn't care about winning the FA Cup or League Cup. That pretty obviously translates to them not mattering. He also said he would be 'over the moon' if we were knocked out of both in the first round. Neither of those statements makes it sound like he thinks they matter all that much.

Somebody (i think it was him) made a reference to them just being bits of metal.

I'm not making it up mate. I've made it quite clear that i'm not really disagreeing with your viewpoint so much as others, i don't think anybody is twisting anything.

Quote for you:

I couldn't care less who wins the domestic cups this year. Chelsea won it last year and their fans haven't mentioned it once, nor have the media. The "prestige" of the domestic cups exists only in the mind of anyone over the age of 30 and the BBC because they have the rights to broadcast the game. Nobody else cares.

As i said, it's pretty black and white.

 

[Allezfan]

So other than a day out at Wembley and a p*ss up for all involved, what is practically so important about the FA Cup - given you're advocating having a go at that but laughing off trying to get fourth place in the league as a "hurdle".

I'm boggled that a shiny bit of metal means more to Evertonians than qualification to the top tier of European football.

Money breeds success. You win the FA Cup once, and it mean absolutely nothing. You win the FA Cup, and your club doesn't change at all.

ITell me why the potential extra 20 games combined in the FA Cup/League Cup is worth doing instead of resting a threadbare Everton squad and focussing on the fewer games to attain a Champions League qualification spot. I need examples - here's one from my end; you get a maximum of £1.8m for actually winning the FA Cup. You get £800k per win in the group stage in the Champions League, and over £7m for simply qualifying.

So the League Cup final and FA Cup final net you a total of £2.3m, assuming you "do the double", whilst winning the Champions League qualifier nets you £7m minimum.

Tell me why the FA Cup/League Cup means anything.

I couldn't care less who wins the domestic cups this year. Chelsea won it last year and their fans haven't mentioned it once, nor have the media. The "prestige" of the domestic cups exists only in the mind of anyone over the age of 30 and the BBC because they have the rights to broadcast the game. Nobody else cares.

If we finish 4th and miss out in the playoffs for the Champions League, I'd still prefer that to an FA Cup final win.

But the League Cup can go to hell each and every year as far as I'm concerned.

Why put yourself in a sub-standard competition with depleting prestige and minimal prize money just to dent your chances of actually qualifying for the big time.

The FA Cup, League Cup and even the Europa League are the preserve of the Newcastles of this world. The smart club would jump out of the domestic cups at the first opportunity and, at best, compete in the Europa League ONLY if you were unfortunate enough to qualify for it.

Erm, did you just say you'd be over the moon if Everton were knocked out of both cups in the first match ?

Yep.

At least one person is saying that, paul.