Current Affairs Ukraine

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Do you honestly believe that he would risk nuclear war for Estonia, Latvia or Lithuania ?….

Won't they "defend every inch of Nato territory" ?

1 Yes we are not at war - but we are involved!
2 Putin/Russia are culpable of mass murder and war crimes
3 We are standing by letting Russia destroy Ukraine, their infrastructure, and killing their people (civillians).
4 We don't want to escalate this, but it is foolhardy to distance ourselves in any way, like saying it's like a civil war.
5 It is also naive to believe Putin will not take this to the next level. Be it chemical weapons, nuclear weapons
or in to another country including NATO countries.
 
What would you like NATO to do?

The question here is obviously what can NATO do to help the Ukr forces without triggering Putin to go nuclear or chemical. If Troops on the ground or planes in the sky is considered to be too provocative then supplying Patriot missile systems to help protect cities from missile attacks could be an option, Germany, Spain, Greece and Netherlands already have them operational in Europe, Slovakia and Slovenia are about to receive them as well. Supplying Harpoon missile launchers to take out the Russian naval fleet that’s been firing on Mariupol and Odessa could be another possibility.
Send more:- drones (military spec and domestic), night vision kits, body armor, Javelin, NLAW, Stinger missile launchers and Manpads, these have all been sent to be fair but send more and actually send the MIG’s that belong to the other Eastern European countries. All or some of this could be already happening of course it may just not be being made public knowledge, the Patriot missiles would make the biggest difference.
 
We are not in world war 3 though. There is a big difference and the west is trying to find a balance of helping Ukraine whilst not escalating matters which is not easy.
Correct. It may well be a precursor though.

China are definitely making their play in the South China Sea and have militarised that area up.

If China, Russia, India and a few key players in the middle East go in together, then who will be sanctioning who? Split the EU and get a country like Brazil on board and we'll potentially have lost without any of Western Europe and the USA ever seeing any "action".
 
If they are NATO states then it is war. I imagine if he invaded any other country now (highly unlikely) it would be war.

But seriously would it be war. How many Americans, British or French would trade nuclear bombs for the sake of Estonia…would you ? The time for NATO to have stepped up to the mark was over Ukraine saying there will be no war in Europe. Putin mentioned nuclear weapons and the west crapped itself. Putin knows that he can do the same trick again on any country, even within NATO and get away with it...bit by bit. We are watching history repeat itself by not facing down a bully early enough.…..
 
Biden can you please put down your remote controller that kill civilians in multiple countries so you can help these Ukrainian civilians.

YoU wEt LeTtUcE
 
If they are NATO states then it is war. I imagine if he invaded any other country now (highly unlikely) it would be war.
You know that similar collective security provisions are contained in membership of the UN, right? And that Ukraine is a founding member of the UN? Russia has shown not to give the slightest [Poor language removed] about messing up the UN or standing alone against the Security Council, so I don't know where this confidence comes that it gives the slightest [Poor language removed] about NATO either.
 
But seriously would it be war. How many Americans, British or French would trade nuclear bombs for the sake of Estonia…would you ? The time for NATO to have stepped up to the mark was over Ukraine saying there will be no war in Europe. Putin mentioned nuclear weapons and the west crapped itself. Putin knows that he can do the same trick again on any country, even within NATO and get away with it...bit by bit. We are watching history repeat itself by not facing down a bully early enough.…..
People aren't willing to do so for the sake of Ukraine and for the basic principle of right and wrong, so this notion that they'd do so "for NATO" is fanciful in the extreme. If you want to find an excuse out of it you'll find an excuse out of it.
 
Correct. It may well be a precursor though.

China are definitely making their play in the South China Sea and have militarised that area up.

If China, Russia, India and a few key players in the middle East go in together, then who will be sanctioning who? Split the EU and get a country like Brazil on board and we'll potentially have lost without any of Western Europe and the USA ever seeing any "action".
70% of the world's population live under a dictatorship, and I dare say a lot of those control a bloody lot of natural resources. But yeah, standing up for the liberal, democratic world order isn't that important.
 
But seriously would it be war. How many Americans, British or French would trade nuclear bombs for the sake of Estonia…would you ? The time for NATO to have stepped up to the mark was over Ukraine saying there will be no war in Europe. Putin mentioned nuclear weapons and the west crapped itself. Putin knows that he can do the same trick again on any country, even within NATO and get away with it...bit by bit. We are watching history repeat itself by not facing down a bully early enough.…..



Based on his recent demeanour, actions and words, I would not like to be the person that calls his bluff tbh. He's not a well man from what I can see and it's hard to know what controlling measures are in place in Russia to prevent a madman from launching nukes. You get a little bit kooky around the convesation of nuclear weapons Pete, between Iran and now Russia. You do know they're pretty dangerous?
 
People aren't willing to do so for the sake of Ukraine and for the basic principle of right and wrong, so this notion that they'd do so "for NATO" is fanciful in the extreme. If you want to find an excuse out of it you'll find an excuse out of it.

Is the correct answer…….
 
70% of the world's population live under a dictatorship, and I dare say a lot of those control a bloody lot of natural resources. But yeah, standing up for the liberal, democratic world order isn't that important.
Not other countries' democracies anyway.
 
Not other countries' democracies anyway.
There you go. Why would an attack on a NATO member be any different? We'd weasel out of it because people would convince themselves that it's not "our" problem. I mean the Baltic states have been invaded by Russia numerous times in their history. The eastern European states were under communist control for 40 years. It's just the "natural" order of things. No point shedding British blood over...
 
From Estonian politician



"The problem is immeasurably deeper, wider, and older than Putin and his band of gangsters. Generation after generation has been raised in a lie. And the despots who have ruled Russia have always gotten away with it internationally.
The terror of Bolsheviks, Stalinist purges, the GULAG as a system have never been criminalised, there was never a national, leadership-led redemption attempt. The opposite, all this is now, again, officially preached as a proud process of national cleansing and strengthening.
Stalin's generals and NKVD bosses were not tried at Nuremberg or Moscow process for co-conspiring with Hitler and Ribbentrop in 1939, for Katyn, for invading and illegally annexing all or parts of the Baltic states, Poland, Finland, Romania, Hungary, etc,
never tried for genocide in all these countries nor for war crimes anywhere they went. I'm not even talking about the wave of Bolshevik aggression against all neighbours in 1918-24…Georgia, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Belarus, Ukraine were all independent democratic nations back then whose future was crushed by Moscow. All these countries were betrayed by the Paris Peace Conference first and at Teheran and Yalta for the second time. By the West.
Hence the deep suspicion in these countries that it’s going to happen again. If Ukraine would have not fought or fought but lost in a week, Ukraine would have been betrayed in a second. By Macron, Scholtz, Biden. Realpolitik and all. New Minsks, new mediations, soon new wars.
The current national myth of Russia & the core of Putin's ideology is the lie about Russia as a liberator. All of us between Russia and Germany are watching Ukraine being liberated and hope that for once the West understands that this is how the Russian liberation has always looked like.
This is what was done to us either in 1918-21 or 1939-45 or both. And it kept going until 1991. And it began again in 2008 and the West pretended, again, that it was not happening.
Germans have apologised for 80 years but I still felt a bit uneasy listening to Scholtz saying: wir werden uns remilitarisieren. Thankfully, for once, the Germans are on the right side of things because even there, after 80 years, the demons are not entirely dead under the surface.
So. No. It’s not about Putin. It is very much about the state of Russian society. It's not Russians' "fault", there are too many factors, but to fix this means a process of national breakdown, regrouping, redemption, and re-education for, well, 80 years.
It can only be done by the Russians themselves and the best thing we can do is not get in there to tell them how. Because we don't know better.
All that is needed is to help Ukraine win, set strict cold war rules relating to Russia until the war crimes have been tried, by them, and a representative government is in office. Let them demilitarise. And then take it slow. Very slow.
And jail every and any Westerner who tries to engage in corrupt business with them. And help them rebuild Russia not Russian imagined expansionist interests.
Of course, it's not going to happen. At least not with the current bunch of leaders we got. The best outcome will be another short period of a Yeltsin after which it’s all going to come to something like we have today, again.
Hope you enjoyed the optimistic note from Estonia."
 
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