The glass ceiling....truth or fiction.

[steken1]

I agree.

All I'm saying is that the richer and better run that the rich clubs get, the harder it is to find something they're not doing.

Wenger was relatively fortunate in coming into a league that was a little backward compared to mainland europe.

Thats the crux of it. It could also be an opportunity in the future if the mood swung away from sitting on your arse for money to going to sides that will play you week in and out for young players.

Like I say though it would need a truly great man. I'm not suggesting any half decent manager could do it or that it would happen overnight.

 

[chicoazul]

Surely by that yardstick then we have a world class manager now? I'm not sure that's the case.

Classic case of roidrage this.

 

[Allezfan]

Surely by that yardstick then we have a world class manager now? I'm not sure that's the case.

No, I think if you combined Moyes and Martinez achievements that's world class.

As in they took over a relegation fighter, didn't have a lot of money relative to their competitors and then turned them into a team winning cups and fighting at the top end of the table. That's world class.

The fact that Moyes stumbled in the cups and Martinez couldn't improve in the league keeps them both in the class below for me. Good, but not special.

 

[steken1]

Wengers greatest advantage/talent when he first came to Arsenal was that he was streets ahead in terms of knowing young, untapped foreign talent. He bought them over young, coached brilliantly, and reaped the rewards. Fergie shared similar traits. Trouble is, Citeh & Chelsea dont need to bother with development/nurture of youth, but that seems to be changing with the massive investment in their youth set ups.

Could someone do the same with us but with the added bonus of the players having a mentality from these shores?

 

[EFC NY]

The problem right now is the shear number of clubs in the Premier League that have seemingly unlimited amounts of money. If it were just one or two teams, than we can win the league on a shoe string budget if these one or two teams slip up, have some injuries, ect. And as someone else has said, qualifying for CL often would increase our revenue and profile. But there is simply no way we can win the league with 6 teams that grossly out spend us.

 

[roydo]

Could someone do the same with us but with the added bonus of the players having a mentality from these shores?

Lets see? Barca lad on loan not a bad start..........

 

[steken1]

Lets see? Barca lad on loan not a bad start..........

Not at all. Lundstram looks a really good cultured player, grant has promise, ross could be something special, stones looks good and who knows.

We'd need a lot of fortune and a few other things to fall like.

 

[Michael Tsui]

If winning cups get us into CL then it would be another story. But, alas, the CL club wanted to keep the access to the cup to themselves.

The best way for Everton to get into CL might be buying out a no-name Welsh team and try to prop it up with our B team.

 

[Allezfan]

The best way for Everton to get into CL might be buying out a no-name Welsh team and try to prop it up with our B team.

Heh, that would be brilliant.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

No, I think if you combined Moyes and Martinez achievements that's world class.

As in they took over a relegation fighter, didn't have a lot of money relative to their competitors and then turned them into a team winning cups and fighting at the top end of the table. That's world class.

The fact that Moyes stumbled in the cups and Martinez couldn't improve in the league keeps them both in the class below for me. Good, but not special.

Aye, it's an interesting one isn't it? Reckon 99% of people would have classed Wenger as world class during his Invincibles era, yet he's gone an absolute age (relatively) without a trophy, and doesn't look any nearer to getting one. I mean it's been 8 years since Arsenal last won something. That's pretty much as long as Moyes had.

Has Wenger gone from champ to chump, or have circumstances changed?

 

[Goat]

Wenger is certainly a strange 1.

I cant work him out, as you said a few Years ago he did everything right, but these days he appears to do everything wrong.

I think at some point he focused too much on youth and overlooked the vital aspects of what makes a successful and winning team.

 

[Michael Tsui]

Aye, it's an interesting one isn't it? Reckon 99% of people would have classed Wenger as world class during his Invincibles era, yet he's gone an absolute age (relatively) without a trophy, and doesn't look any nearer to getting one. I mean it's been 8 years since Arsenal last won something. That's pretty much as long as Moyes had.

Has Wenger gone from champ to chump, or have circumstances changed?

Their way of thinking is exactly like a PL team trying to just keep their heads out of the water. Every season for them is a relegation fight, and beating the odds every time to keep in the CL is itself a miracle.

 

[blueblue]

Very few managers are "special ones" Wenger is a good manager,inherited a good squad made a few really good signings and won trophies.
Everything he has done has been relatively average. Arsenal are a huge club with huge budgets they have underachieved if anything.
Mourinho at Porto was special ,at Chelsea he did what he should do with the budget he had. At Chelsea Abramovich is really the special one.
If Mourinho went to Everton and won the league with them then that would confirm his greatness.At City Sheik Rattle'n'roll is the special one because his money changed the club entirely. He was so special he turned the club around in spite of having two very ordinary managers...that is the lesson in the power of money.
The lesson relating to managerial brilliance in recent times still has to be proven.

Remember Maradona a number of years ago at the very peak of his powers went to an ordinary Itialian club(Napoli ?) and won them two ? league titles . That is brilliance.
Rooney coming back to Everton and winning a league title is brilliance.
What Kendall did,what Clough did was brilliance.
What Mourinho is currently doing is flexing muscle.

 

[Tree13]

The argument is whether an already competive club finishing around 4th to 8th needs those billions to win the league or if a world class manager can narrow the gap by himself.

Well if that's the argument this thread should be pretty short.

The league is a 38-game competition in which injuries and suspensions are inevitable. It is a marathon, it makes MASSIVE demands on your playing squad. You cannot win the league without playing all 38 games, and you will play all of the top six teams twice. Even if you save your best players for league competition only, and just field reserves and youngsters in the cups, you'd be unlikely to have more than three or four lads play in every game. The level of attrition is simply too high.

The cups by comparison are sprints. You can win one playing less than ten games. You might not face a top six side at any point, including the final. You could conceivably field the same starting eleven in every cup game, provided you are prepared to sacrifice a few league results to do so.

You CANNOT win the prem without a serious amount of money. Look at how much Spurs and the RS spend on transfers and wages... and they are both just aiming for fourth place! The teams above them (Manchester x 2 and Chelsea) spend way more. There are simply too many other teams in the prem spending a HUGE amount of money for any team to snatch a title with a smaller squad. Strength in depth is the key to winning the league.

The cups are a more viable target but the gamble in going all out for winning one is that you risk tumbling down the league table. The glass ceiling is VERY real when discussing the Prem, and no manager on earth can alter that. It is less of an obstacle in Cup competition, although it is not non-existent.

IMHO we are a starting CM, a starting RM and a starting striker away from competing for fourth place but, if we're prepared to drop to 10th or 11th in the process, we are genuine cup contenders as we are. To finish higher than fourth we'd need upgrades in every position because we don't have prem-quality depth anywhere.

 

[steken1]

Wenger is certainly a strange 1.

I cant work him out, as you said a few Years ago he did everything right, but these days he appears to do everything wrong.

I think at some point he focused too much on youth and overlooked the vital aspects of what makes a successful and winning team.

I think he got too caught up in proving he could beat Chelsea without the money and weren't quite strong enough mentally, as they did have the side, and it went from there.

Need to remember they've financed a massive stadium without billionaires throwing money about like a drunk sailor.