The glass ceiling....truth or fiction.

[Allezfan]

Jose actually is a special one.

So lets not use him, its basically cheating.

That's my point though.

A ferguson, a Clough, a Hitzveld, a Mourinho, a Stein, a Saachi or any honestly world class manager could overcome the glass ceiling but none of them want to try because they'd rather go to a big boy and see how much they can win there.

The fact that Chelsea hired Mourinho and we hired Martinez is the glass ceiling, more than anything.

 

[Brownie]

Dortmund hadn't been in the CL for nearly a decade when they won it, though.

Montpellier had never been in it when they won the french league.

I get that the difference is there was only one mega rich club that needed to have a bad season rather than 6 but it's just not true that it took CL money to do it.

This is the main thing, the Premier League is unique in the number of clubs with huge financial backing.

It is still possible, but you'd have to get outrageously lucky by having a large crop of amazing youth players of similar age, some incredible signings in the summer before, a potentially great manager in his first couple of years at the club and all the other title challengers to underperform, all in the same season.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

We had a world class manager, and it got us to 5-8th in the league consistently. I'm not sure that Porto is a valid comparison, as whilst they may be relatively small compared to the giants of European football, they are nonetheless one of the giants of Portuguese football, so can probably have their pick of the best Portuguese talent before they're snaffled up by bigger clubs.

The same applied to the great Ajax team of the 90's. Sadly, the same does not apply to us, as we compete with a lot of clubs for the best young talent in Britain.

The only real hope we have imo is to have an influx of 6-7 young players of England quality around the same time. I've bemoaned on here at length how average our own youth production line is, but of course England as a whole does no better. That sort of situation used to happen a decade or so ago, with the likes of Leeds, West Ham, Man Utd and even Liverpool having a crop of talent coming through at the same time. I can't think of any teams that have had any in the last 5 years.

That's all it'd take though (I know - 'all' it would take), but drop 3-4 England international quality players into our squad and it would be competitive at the sharp end of competitions. It'd certainly be top 4 material.

 

[steken1]

Yes. Soon Arsenal will challenge for trophies again. When Wenger walked in there they weren't the club they are now, didn't have the ground they have and they weren't the money making machine either.

He's got a negative net spend, sells big players and promotes youth.

Money isn't everything but you do need vision, enough to speculate, a board and manager working in tandem and an outstanding eye for a player.

I believe one truly great managerial appointment would change our fortunes completely.

 

[Allezfan]

We had a world class manager, and it got us to 5-8th in the league consistently.

See, I just don't agree with that.

 

[Goat]

Im sure if Everton could match his 15m a Year wages Jose would jump at the chance?

LOL

 

[Goat]

Wait did Bruce just call Moyes World Class?

 

[Allezfan]

Wait did Bruce just call Moyes World Class?

Too many steroids.

 

[Timak]

Chelsea before Roman were a CL team who spent millions on sutton, flo, poyet etc.

They weren't a small team. If Mourinho had gone there then, he'd have had less of a financial disadvantage then he's had in europe with porto and inter.

He could have won them that league under bates.

So he could have won them the league if he'd been given lots of money under Bates.

I don't disagree but I don't see how that means he'd have won the league with, say Everton.

 

[Timak]

Yes. Soon Arsenal will challenge for trophies again. When Wenger walked in there they weren't the club they are now, didn't have the ground they have and they weren't the money making machine either.

He's got a negative net spend, sells big players and promotes youth.

Money isn't everything but you do need vision, enough to speculate, a board and manager working in tandem and an outstanding eye for a player.

And a £140m wage bill which got them about 12 more points than us last year with a £60m wage bill. There is such a diminishing rate of return on wages at that level of the table.

I believe one truly great managerial appointment would change our fortunes completely

.

How?

Take Wenger as an example, he won loads, Chelsea and City came along and now he wins nothing. No club with a £60m wage bill will get anywhere near the league.

You'd need to double it to have any chance.

 

[Allezfan]

So he could have won them the league if he'd been given lots of money under Bates.

I don't disagree but I don't see how that means he'd have won the league with, say Everton.

Well there's lots of money and there's lots of money. Under bates chelsea were about the 5th or 6th top spenders. Under Abramovic they outspent everyone else combined.

The argument is whether an already competive club finishing around 4th to 8th needs those billions to win the league or if a world class manager can narrow the gap by himself.

My point is that it's a futile argument because world class manager's don't take that risk.

 

[Allezfan]

Yes. Soon Arsenal will challenge for trophies again. When Wenger walked in there they weren't the club they are now, didn't have the ground they have and they weren't the money making machine either.

He's got a negative net spend, sells big players and promotes youth.

Money isn't everything but you do need vision, enough to speculate, a board and manager working in tandem and an outstanding eye for a player.

I believe one truly great managerial appointment would change our fortunes completely.

Yeah, I'm with timak on this one.

Negative net spend means nothing when their wages are so ridiculously high.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

See, I just don't agree with that.

How do you define a world class manager though? If he wins the PL this season, does that make him so?

Managers are very much a product of their environment and luck is hugely under-estimated. Clough was awful at Leeds for instance. Ferguson could have been sacked very early in his tenure, and quite possibly would have retired earlier than he did had they not fluked the first CL win in Barcelona.

Was Avram Grant a better manager than Mourinho because he got Chelsea to a CL final where Jose didn't? Quite probably not. Luck, y'see. Mourinho suffered from a iffy ref display against Barca. Avram Grant suffered bad luck in the penalty shoot out against United.

 

[steken1]

We had a world class manager, and it got us to 5-8th in the league consistently. I'm not sure that Porto is a valid comparison, as whilst they may be relatively small compared to the giants of European football, they are nonetheless one of the giants of Portuguese football, so can probably have their pick of the best Portuguese talent before they're snaffled up by bigger clubs.

The same applied to the great Ajax team of the 90's. Sadly, the same does not apply to us, as we compete with a lot of clubs for the best young talent in Britain.

The only real hope we have imo is to have an influx of 6-7 young players of England quality around the same time. I've bemoaned on here at length how average our own youth production line is, but of course England as a whole does no better. That sort of situation used to happen a decade or so ago, with the likes of Leeds, West Ham, Man Utd and even Liverpool having a crop of talent coming through at the same time. I can't think of any teams that have had any in the last 5 years.

That's all it'd take though (I know - 'all' it would take), but drop 3-4 England international quality players into our squad and it would be competitive at the sharp end of competitions. It'd certainly be top 4 material.

The relative lack of youth players coming through does offer an opportunity. The Fergie's fledglings that came through played a major part in their success as they all came through at a similar time, all had a great mentality, stayed long term and grew together.

If we managed that we'd go from 6th best to challengers within a few years simply because no one else will.

 

[Allezfan]

How do you define a world class manager though? If he wins the PL this season, does that make him so?

No, it wouldn't.

I agree about luck and I agree that some jobs are easier than others and some jobs require different skills and that it's sometimes easier to win eight trophies with a good team than keep a bad team in the league but the latter will never get the same praise.

But a world class manger is, to me, one who can transform a losing team into a winning team. And Moyes couldn't.