Moyes or The Board?

[Timak]

You lost me at that redundant claptrap, pal.

We aren't "punching above our weight".

Every one of the teams which finished below us this season, with the exception of Liverpool and Villa, have played Championship football in this century.

So how were we "punching above our weight"?

What does that even mean in fotball terms anyway.

Under Moyes, Everton were no better than they should have been.

I was going to stay out of this.

However the logical fallacy in your argument is like nails on a blackboard to me.

You are saying that the fact Moyes has managed to keep Everton in the Premier league when every club (bar Liverpool and Villa) that finished below us has been in the Championship as an argument that he didn't overachieve?

We are punching above our weight because the only clubs to finish above us are those that VASTLY outspend us. And there are clubs below us who outspend us too.

It isn't even an argument if you use actual facts.

Moyes had Everton punching well above our weight.

Let's hope Roberto does as good a job in the league.

 

[The Hairy Splinter]

So was Moyes just too slow? Or was it all to do with the board not giving him money until the last few weeks - as suggested in many other threads...

Negative net spend for four consecutive seasons...

 

[Tubey]

Negative net spend for four consecutive seasons...

Playing a reserve side in a derby, bottling it every big game that came about, the tactical ability of a sheep, keeping to ridiculous selection choices even when it was abundantly clear other options were available, deliberately running down his contract to wave his arse in the air to bigger clubs hoping for a taker...

Works both ways that. The people who sing Moyes' positives (pretty much his transfer record alone) always somehow gloss over the many negatives.

David Moyes was a fantastic Director of Football - but I'm looking forward to having a fantastic manager instead.

 

[Ihaters]

Playing a reserve side in a derby, bottling it every big game that came about, the tactical ability of a sheep, keeping to ridiculous selection choices even when it was abundantly clear other options were available, deliberately running down his contract to wave his arse in the air to bigger clubs hoping for a taker...

Works both ways that. The people who sing Moyes' positives (pretty much his transfer record alone) always somehow gloss over the many negatives.

David Moyes was a fantastic Director of Football - but I'm looking forward to having a fantastic manager instead.

I would say this is more important than any of your opinion based arguments or his transfer dealings:

Pre Moyes
1992-93 42 7 6 8 26 27 8 2 11 27 28 -2 53 13th
1993-94 42 8 4 9 26 30 4 4 13 16 33 -21 44 17th
1994-95 42 8 9 4 31 23 3 8 10 13 28 -7 50 15th
1995-96 38 10 5 4 35 19 7 5 7 29 25 +20 61 6th
1996-97 38 7 4 8 24 22 3 8 8 20 35 -13 42 15th
1997-98 38 7 5 7 25 27 2 8 9 16 29 -15 40 17th
1998-99 38 6 8 5 22 12 5 2 12 20 35 -7 43 14th
1999-2k 38 7 9 3 36 19 5 5 9 23 28 +12 50 13th
2000-01 38 6 8 5 29 27 5 1 13 16 32 -14 42 16th
2001-02 38 8 4 7 26 23 3 6 10 19 34 -12 43 15th

Post Moyes

2002-03 38 11 5 3 28 19 6 3 10 20 30 -1 59 7th
2003-04 38 8 5 6 27 20 1 7 11 18 37 -12 39 17th
2004-05 38 12 2 5 24 15 6 5 8 21 31 -1 61 4th
2005-06 38 8 4 7 22 22 6 4 9 12 27 -15 50 11th
2006-07 38 11 4 4 33 17 4 9 6 19 19 +16 58 6th
2007-08 38 11 4 4 34 17 8 4 7 21 16 +22 65 5th
2008-09 38 8 6 5 31 20 9 6 4 24 17 +18 63 5th
2009-10 38 11 6 2 35 21 5 7 7 25 28 +11 61 8th
2010-11 38 9 7 3 31 23 4 8 7 20 22 +6 54 7th
2011-12 38 10 3 6 28 15 5 8 6 22 25 +10 56 7th
2012-13 38 12 6 1 33 17 4 9 6 22 23 +15 63 6th

Now bearing in mind his transfer policiy was considered poor as well and add to your your list of course and mine (I posted a fairly extensive one people had been starting threads about a page back)... Maybe you can explain how the above happened?

You see, things like we were boring, or Moyes was tactically inept etc are opinons.. Opinions that many don't agree with.

The above is not an opinion, its an inarguable fact. Under Moyes we went from turgid rubbish to quality and changed us from whipping boys, to a respected club again. That means something to some people.
That you think people like Moyes just because of his transfers is massively misrepresenting a large portion of our fan base.

 

[banno]

Show me a post where I have been detrimental about Martinez? I think he's a good manager and these are good times.. This is what I'm telling you. Instead of filling the foum with hate... get with the excitement.
You're telling me to move on, in some kind of 'what you said back at you' movement, but in a thread designed to have a pop at Moyes which is exactly the sort of thing I am on about.

And anyone who thinks that because someone wants to move onto the new era and stop the endless 'I hate Moyes' threads, hould be a United fan, well pretty much covers themselves in the appropriate level of glory.

Are you going to jump on everyones back who doesn't think Moyes was the messiah? Not everyone agrees on the merits of Moyes so maybe thats why they post there thoughts about him on a forum.

 

[Walken]

Playing a reserve side in a derby, bottling it every big game that came about, the tactical ability of a sheep, keeping to ridiculous selection choices even when it was abundantly clear other options were available, deliberately running down his contract to wave his arse in the air to bigger clubs hoping for a taker...

Works both ways that. The people who sing Moyes' positives (pretty much his transfer record alone) always somehow gloss over the many negatives.

David Moyes was a fantastic Director of Football - but I'm looking forward to having a fantastic manager instead.

Great post, his stubborn selections when literally everyone else in Goodison could see he was wrong turned me against him, he just doesn't have the bottle to be a top manager, the best managers realise that preparation only takes you so far, every now again you have to take a leap of faith and give players their heads, Moyes will never do that, its why his favourites are always the likes of Neville, Stubbs, Hibbert

 

[The Hairy Splinter]

Playing a reserve side in a derby, bottling it every big game that came about, the tactical ability of a sheep, keeping to ridiculous selection choices even when it was abundantly clear other options were available, deliberately running down his contract to wave his arse in the air to bigger clubs hoping for a taker...

Works both ways that. The people who sing Moyes' positives (pretty much his transfer record alone) always somehow gloss over the many negatives.

David Moyes was a fantastic Director of Football - but I'm looking forward to having a fantastic manager instead.

Well, that post was a little classic of misinformation, wasn't it?

Moyes was great for Everton and not merely because of his transfer record. Look at the consistent top-eight finishes after years of fighting relegation. (Remember when our captain, on the eve of a new season, claimed he'd be happy with a top-17 finish?) Look at the finishes above the RS (crap though that lot are). Look at the infrastructure that he put in place. Look at how many Everton players have gone on to play for England since he took over. As for bottling big games, Distin cost us the FA semi, Neville cost us the Wigan game - diabolical individual errors.

As regards that Anfield derby, you have a point. I was as angry as everybody else about that, BUT I understood the reasons for it, even if I didn't agree with it. Tactical ability of a sheep? - bollocks. Running down his contract? - Kenwright was entirely culpable for that. He should have said to Moyes last summer, "Here's another two years, sign here or **** off."

And now the biggest Club in world football has recruited him. Odd, that?

 

[Ihaters]

Are you going to jump on everyones back who doesn't think Moyes was the messiah? Not everyone agrees on the merits of Moyes so maybe thats why they post there thoughts about him on a forum.

I am yes. Its a fourm, I don't agree with what's being posted of late. So I post.
Is the issue with me posting that this forum is depressing as fk, when it should be at its highest, or simply that I am posting positives about moyes?

Honestly I don't think that Moyes was the messiah, he had his faults, but he certainly wasn't this turgid waste of space people are making out.

 

[The Hairy Splinter]

Honestly I don't think that Moyes was the messiah, he had his faults, but he certainly wasn't this turgid waste of space people are making out.

Correct. Top-eight finishes with negative net spend in a league ruled by money. That alone makes him a bloody good manager.

Anyway, he's gone, good luck to him. I'm highly sceptical about Martinez but I will back him 100%.

 

[Ravensblue]

Just a couple of points.
1, no we wasn't.
2, You don't know that.

1,Sooooo in the 90's before moyes we weren't battling relagation then pretty much every season? I must of imagined that part of my life then eh.

2, I don't know for certain no but it was inevertable that we would go down if it wasn't for moyes making us the team we are to day.


I mean anyone could of got us from relagation fodder to constant top 8 in leauge. I mean look at Martinez who is the better manager apparently he got wigan from relagation to champions leauge in his 4 years there...oh no that was moyes with us wasn't it Martinez got wigan relagated didn't he.

Tbh am absolutely disgusted with how people on here have been treating moyes he did a lot for us and deserves some respect where everton is involved.

And everyone saying he is a crap manager he's not is he lets be honest he is a bloody good manager and this is one thing me and SAF Seem to agree on an ill take his word on football over a bunch posters on an Internet fourm who are acting like a child who's mum has taken there toy away and ran off crying, screaming "I never liked it anyway".

But what really makes me laught is thread after thread of bile towards moyes yet when any sane fan say anything positive about him we get told to get over him. I think you'll find the people who arn't living a fantasy land are over moyes remeber him for the good manager who did a lot for us but have moved onto Martinez now. It's the rest of you with your bile banging on about how crap he was every 7 seconds that seem to not be able to let go.

 

[nsno-chris]

Moyes was a fantastic manager who was sometimes tactically inept, but that was in our opinion only as none of us have a clue what goes into the preperation for a football game at the highest level. What may seem stupid to us, may have been logical to him and his coaching staff and for one reason or another it didn;t transpire on the pitch.

If we had a former football manager on this forum, i would take his opinion over most; the fact is 'we' are football fans who have a knowledge of football and opinions; what goes into the preperation and selection is something none of us have, or will ever get, experience of.

With regards to the nature of this thread. There are 2 main differences as to what RM as done compared to DM. RM has brought 3 people who he has worked with for 12 months and over, he knows there strengths, qualitites and weaknesses so minimal scouting was required. Gerard is a different keetle of fish, and Everton have got a em by all sounds of it, but this also benefits Barca as he will gain valueable top level experience.

DM was very, very indepth with his player analysis, he wanted a certain type of player to fit into a certain type of team. He made sure they could do difference jobs and most importantly that there mentality was right to allow them to mix socially with others; that team spirit he built was renowned. He didn't just go out and buy a player for the sake of it, he had financial difficulties but he also wanted an 'Everton' player.

I'll also be grateful for DM for turning us around, yes he made mistakes but he should also be credited for not just steadying the ship, but turning us in the right direction. Hopefully RM can turn that into a success with a bit more attractive football and flair

 

[blueblue]

The real test of David Moyes hasn't been passed, it hasn't been started yet.

Nobody denies what he did for Everton,but he is something of a media darling and there is an implication that without him we would have been doomed.He certainly had become bigger than EvertonFC.
Over the next years and months we will find out if David Moyes is a top manager or a manager who can get a team to a certain level but not to a top level. He now has a top team ,huge squad and huge resources ,lets see how he manages all of that.

I have held the belief for a couple of years that he will always be a "nearly manager" ,I wasn't sure how this theory could be proven or disproved.
Utd have now given us the opportunity to find out.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

Well, that post was a little classic of misinformation, wasn't it?

Moyes was great for Everton and not merely because of his transfer record. Look at the consistent top-eight finishes after years of fighting relegation. (Remember when our captain, on the eve of a new season, claimed he'd be happy with a top-17 finish?) Look at the finishes above the RS (crap though that lot are). Look at the infrastructure that he put in place. Look at how many Everton players have gone on to play for England since he took over. As for bottling big games, Distin cost us the FA semi, Neville cost us the Wigan game - diabolical individual errors.

As regards that Anfield derby, you have a point. I was as angry as everybody else about that, BUT I understood the reasons for it, even if I didn't agree with it. Tactical ability of a sheep? - bollocks. Running down his contract? - Kenwright was entirely culpable for that. He should have said to Moyes last summer, "Here's another two years, sign here or **** off."

And now the biggest Club in world football has recruited him. Odd, that?

Great post, my thoughts exactly.

 

[Tubey]

Well, that post was a little classic of misinformation, wasn't it?

Moyes was great for Everton and not merely because of his transfer record. Look at the consistent top-eight finishes after years of fighting relegation. (Remember when our captain, on the eve of a new season, claimed he'd be happy with a top-17 finish?) Look at the finishes above the RS (crap though that lot are). Look at the infrastructure that he put in place. Look at how many Everton players have gone on to play for England since he took over. As for bottling big games, Distin cost us the FA semi, Neville cost us the Wigan game - diabolical individual errors.

As regards that Anfield derby, you have a point. I was as angry as everybody else about that, BUT I understood the reasons for it, even if I didn't agree with it. Tactical ability of a sheep? - bollocks. Running down his contract? - Kenwright was entirely culpable for that. He should have said to Moyes last summer, "Here's another two years, sign here or **** off."

And now the biggest Club in world football has recruited him. Odd, that?

It's not misinformation at all - claiming that Distin cost us that derby is misinformation (given the whole side dropped off on Moyes' orders at half time in that game) and that Neville did (given we were playing like fools and already behind at that point).

He WAS tactically poor. The fact your only response to that is "bollocks" speaks volumes.

The fact Kenwright allowed Moyes to take us all for mugs doesn't excuse Moyes for doing so.

Man Utd hiring him means sod all. He was Fergusons mate and a hand-picked appointment. It only means something if he does something there.

 

[Carlito]

Moyes was a fantastic manager who was sometimes tactically inept, but that was in our opinion only as none of us have a clue what goes into the preperation for a football game at the highest level. What may seem stupid to us, may have been logical to him and his coaching staff and for one reason or another it didn;t transpire on the pitch.

If we had a former football manager on this forum, i would take his opinion over most; the fact is 'we' are football fans who have a knowledge of football and opinions; what goes into the preperation and selection is something none of us have, or will ever get, experience of.

With regards to the nature of this thread. There are 2 main differences as to what RM as done compared to DM. RM has brought 3 people who he has worked with for 12 months and over, he knows there strengths, qualitites and weaknesses so minimal scouting was required. Gerard is a different keetle of fish, and Everton have got a em by all sounds of it, but this also benefits Barca as he will gain valueable top level experience.

DM was very, very indepth with his player analysis, he wanted a certain type of player to fit into a certain type of team. He made sure they could do difference jobs and most importantly that there mentality was right to allow them to mix socially with others; that team spirit he built was renowned. He didn't just go out and buy a player for the sake of it, he had financial difficulties but he also wanted an 'Everton' player.

I'll also be grateful for DM for turning us around, yes he made mistakes but he should also be credited for not just steadying the ship, but turning us in the right direction. Hopefully RM can turn that into a success with a bit more attractive football and flair

As someone who thought Moyes was unnecessarily conservative and too rigid with his tactics at times, I'm very interested to see what's possible with a bit more of a cavalier approach. Where Everton finished last season was probably about the limit for a club without the money to go out and buy a real match-winner, but I do believe that it's possible to get there again without relying too much on meticulous planning and instead allowing the players more freedom to find moments of inspiration.