Hard work beats talent if talent doesn't work hard.

[kithnou]

Let's see how far 11 McGeadys would get shall we?

 

[Jimmy Grimble]

It's not the point of the thread though is it? You always need "water carriers" and players who do the hard miles that give the platform for the silkier players to perform I get your juxtaposition of course but you are certainly missing the point. Big Dunc was not the most gifted but he used every attribute he had to his maximum in order to do his utmost for the team.

Not sure I agree with that. Dunc was a very talented footballer. Better with the ball at his feet than many give him credit for. He certainly showed up for the big games. I'm not sure his levels of effort were greater than others on the whole. I wouldn't doubt his aggression, but that's not the same as straquilersi levels of effort

 

[Smig1878]

Not sure I agree with that. Dunc was a very talented footballer. Better with the ball at his feet than many give him credit for. He certainly showed up for the big games. I'm not sure his levels of effort were greater than others on the whole. I wouldn't doubt his aggression, but that's not the same as straquilersi levels of effort

Not quite what I was getting at, he worked hard at what he was good at, he was very far from a complete player and while he was decent with his feet (he started as a left winger, somehow!?) he knew his role and did his best to fill it, again giving the platform for others to play their way

 

[davek]

I think that it is very relevant now in an era where a player could retire after half a season such are the riches offered at a big club in this league.

Increasingly players lack the desire and commitment to be the very best.

Any young kid with the gift to be a top footballer is aware of the financial rewards more so than the aim of being a winner.

Agents are more to blame than anyone. How many great players have been lost to the benches of the rich clubs.

Koeman is right to demand every ounce of effort from his players. Combine that with skill and hopefully put an end to the dreadful trophyless period that is so unbefiting of this great club.

I agree with every word. Of course you need all players - the talented and not so talented - to be training hard to get the best from whatever they have to offer by way of being a footballer. But it's hardly worth underlining. In fact, as I've said, its quite a political statement to use in the context of a manager coming in and wanting to make changes. It implies that quality is required in tandem with effort. But to make/endorse a statement like that in public is sending out a message: it's a way of transmitting to fans that this is what's guiding his decisions on shelling out talented individuals from the club whilst retaining the veneer of valuing talent.

This is a manager who's every utterance is pointed. Make no mistake about that. There is no 'fat' on his commentary: it's thought out to project a message that helps him out...which may not be the same as helping us out on many occasions.

He's very instrumental in all he says. No idle chat or ruminations. Probably the most political manager we've ever had.

 

[Eggsyblueskin]

Isnt this what gash players say to compensate for their lack of skill?

The irony of this comment is that every footballer gains his skill through hard work and self discipline ,it isn't magically bestowed on them. When people bemoan their lack of talent they are excusing themselves for lacking the necessary dedication, commitment and application to pursue their own ambition.

 

[davek]

It's not the point of the thread though is it? You always need "water carriers" and players who do the hard miles that give the platform for the silkier players to perform I get your juxtaposition of course but you are certainly missing the point. Big Dunc was not the most gifted but he used every attribute he had to his maximum in order to do his utmost for the team.

Yes, you do need them. But that's one of the points being made: that such grafters are given equal status now with creative players (even, perhaps, thought more of now).

It's happened because there's been a commodification of football and players need to be given (undue) value in order to create a massive market for them.

The football industry is insane right now.

I remember reading about Madrid's president Florient Perez (and this was during the Galactico period) refusing to elevate Makelele in the pecking order of wages because he was a defensive destroyer and player that kept it tidy in midfield. He got stick for it and was eventually punished when they failed to replace Makelele, but the instinct was spot on. The game is about ultimately winning in an entertaining fashion, and the difference makers are creative players.

 

[Toffeepot]

I agree with every word. Of course you need all players - the talented and not so talented - to be training hard to get the best from whatever they have to offer by way of being a footballer. But it's hardly worth underlining. In fact, as I've said, its quite a political statement to use in the context of a manager coming in and wanting to make changes. It implies that quality is required in tandem with effort. But to make/endorse a statement like that in public is sending out a message: it's a way of transmitting to fans that this is what's guiding his decisions on shelling out talented individuals from the club whilst retaining the veneer of valuing talent.

This is a manager who's every utterance is pointed. Make no mistake about that. There is no 'fat' on his commentary: it's thought out to project a message that helps him out...which may not be the same as helping us out on many occasions.

He's very instrumental in all he says. No idle chat or ruminations. Probably the most political manager we've ever had.

Or, maybe, just maybe he is telling his players that he wasn't the most talented in his teams but he worked his socks off and became invaluable. Maybe he's telling them don't worry about what the guy next to you can do, don't let your head drop, working hard will bring out your best. Or, maybe, just maybe he was saying I don't like lazy players, which is fine by me

 

[Billy Dean]

I read an interview online recently, I think it was with someone who was working in the Tottenham academy. He was saying that over the years they saw that it wasn't skill that brought players to the top, but attitude. Those with the craving to learn and always improve were the ones that made it. That's the attitude that Harry Kane has and if you believe the likes of Unsworth and Koeman then DCL has it too.

 

[Toffeepot]

I read an interview online recently, I think it was with someone who was working in the Tottenham academy. He was saying that over the years they saw that it wasn't skill that brought players to the top, but attitude. Those with the craving to learn and always improve were the ones that made it. That's the attitude that Harry Kane has and if you believe the likes of Unsworth and Koeman then DCL has it too.

and Tom Davies

 

[ste d' indica]

Tim got knocked back a lot of times as a youngster, and we seem to be going for this type of player- had some form of adversity to overcome to make it as a player, not just sailed through academies ect- see Lookman, Bolasie, Onyekuru, Josh Bowler. Ones with hunger, without entitlement.

Coleman's a perfect example of this, could've easily been lost to the game were it not for his own determination.

 

[ste d' indica]

Let's see how far 11 McGeadys would get shall we?

I reckon they'd defo all get to the pie shop.

 

[Darth Toffeeman]

Yes, you do need them. But that's one of the points being made: that such grafters are given equal status now with creative players (even, perhaps, thought more of now).

It's happened because there's been a commodification of football and players need to be given (undue) value in order to create a massive market for them.

The football industry is insane right now.

I remember reading about Madrid's president Florient Perez (and this was during the Galactico period) refusing to elevate Makelele in the pecking order of wages because he was a defensive destroyer and player that kept it tidy in midfield. He got stick for it and was eventually punished when they failed to replace Makelele, but the instinct was spot on. The game is about ultimately winning in an entertaining fashion, and the difference makers are creative players.

Probably the most political manager ever was Alex Ferguson. To be successful the manager has to have total control and respect of his team. I think a manager has to stamp his authority be that rightly or wrongly, for the long term aims. The biggest issue is how long Koeman is committed to the club's long term plan. I guess this is where Walsh and continuity is key.

 

[Eggsyblueskin]

Yes, you do need them. But that's one of the points being made: that such grafters are given equal status now with creative players (even, perhaps, thought more of now).

It's happened because there's been a commodification of football and players need to be given (undue) value in order to create a massive market for them.

The football industry is insane right now.

I remember reading about Madrid's president Florient Perez (and this was during the Galactico period) refusing to elevate Makelele in the pecking order of wages because he was a defensive destroyer and player that kept it tidy in midfield. He got stick for it and was eventually punished when they failed to replace Makelele, but the instinct was spot on. The game is about ultimately winning in an entertaining fashion, and the difference makers are creative players.

I think that you are being very disrespectful to all the skilled players you admire if you think they didn't achieve what they did without massive amounts of dedication , hard work and application.

 

[degsy]

Skill + hard work will trump skill + slacking.

I believe that was the nature of the quotation in the OP as endorsed by Koeman.

That's true. But it hardly needs to be stated, and when it is it's almost always done as a means to amplify the Importance if hard work and downplay skill.

It's a quotation laden with meaning...and from my p.o.v. is it's message is that grafters are more welcome than creative types.

Opinion
pov
that's how you see it, but not how others do.
I too agree with the basic statement, I would think it depends on where you put the ratio / divide of skill and effort

 

[kenada_blue]

I read an interview online recently, I think it was with someone who was working in the Tottenham academy. He was saying that over the years they saw that it wasn't skill that brought players to the top, but attitude. Those with the craving to learn and always improve were the ones that made it. That's the attitude that Harry Kane has and if you believe the likes of Unsworth and Koeman then DCL has it too.

And Tom Cleverly