Hard work beats talent if talent doesn't work hard.

[leslad]

The two aren't mutually exclusive; I think a player's determination and desire to win could be considered both as talents of a player but also evidence of their work rate.

Contrast Deulofeu, who has an abundance of talent, with Coleman, who is limited in respect of the same attributes. Who adds more value to the team? Easily Coleman. But then which player has won more points for us? It's difficult to say.

I would say winning is 80% sweat and 20% skill, but if the sweat isn't accompanied by distinctive skills and talents, then it is rendered completely futile.

 

[Groucho]

Always thought that was more a trait of that lot over there. Big on work ethic.

Everton traditionally demand skill, the workrate is a by-product.

You seem to confuse effort with brutality and workrate there mate.

Effort does not equate to two footed tackling. Peter Reid for example - style and grit together.

As @ijjysmith said, ideally both.

 

[degsy]

It's all about where the line is drawn Re Skill : Effort when buying players
The Straq Vs Bily or McFadden
Reid Vs Steven

The manager of the 1970 Brazil team stated for every Maestro there has to be somebody to push the piano on the stage or else the maestro can't play.
Ratios

Oh and win 28 games and draw a few through effort and we'll all be singing 'Champions, Champions' and nobody will give a rats.

 

[Brisan123]

People always undervalue the skill/attributes involved in intelligent off the ball work. I know it's not Everton, but the ultimate example who had skills/attributes which were totally undervalued because they were closing down, & intelligent off the ball work defensively is Claude Makalele @ Real Madrid.

I don't think it's in everyone's psyche to do these things, which is why the ones that can work their b@lls off at the right moments are so easily identifiable.

I don't think Makeke was undervalued.
Every manager who he played for had him as an automatic starter.
I remember at Chelsea they let him take a Peno in the last game of the season so he could score his first professional goal.
His teammates and critics all agreed he was the best player in the world in his position

 

[degsy]

You seem to confuse effort with brutality and workrate there mate.

Effort does not equate to two footed tackling. Peter Reid for example - style and grit together.

As @ijjysmith said, ideally both.

Very True.
Back in the Day the 62-63 team were 'accused' by the southern press of being too rough and efficient

 

[royalblue66]

It's all about where the line is drawn Re Skill : Effort when buying players
The Straq Vs Bily or McFadden
Reid Vs Steven

The manager of the 1970 Brazil team stated for every Maestro there has to be somebody to push the piano on the stage or else the maestro can't play.
Ratios

Oh and win 28 games and draw a few through effort and we'll all be singing 'Champions, Champions' and nobody will give a rats.

Don't think it will be everybody, mate, there will be a few on here booing.

 

[Gwladys St. Glory]

Tim got knocked back a lot of times as a youngster...

I haven't read his book so I don't know if he makes mention of it but I got this feeling after a couple of interviews I've watched with him over the years. He's been scathing of the youth system in Australia; you can tell it lit a fire under his arse and he's been out to prove a few completely wrong. I'd say he's more than achieved that.

 

[davids]

Going back into history Brian Clough won domestic and European trophies with teams that relied heavily on work rate and team effort (being terrified of him helped too)

 

[Baines' left foot]

On the flip side of this I think our fans slate talented players when they 'don't put a shift in' when it may not be their role to do so.

Also I find fans take a liking to players who are try hards but are totally rubbish, such as Naismith; a hero of the Gwladys Steet, Barkley gets abuse from all corners. No wonder he wants to leave.

 

[Billy Dean]

But too much emphasis is placed these days on chasing and pressing and elevating basic stuff like that as a skill.

The best teams press Dave, currently and throughout history. Rinus Michels total Football Teams were masters of it

 

[Eggsyblueskin]

It's not just football either , in any walk of life if you turn up and don't put a shift in you will soon get resented and disliked by your fellow workers who have to work harder in your stead. Laziness is never a virtue.

 

[Darren Higgs]

need to put this on before each game.

 

[Midnitemike]

I read an interview online recently, I think it was with someone who was working in the Tottenham academy. He was saying that over the years they saw that it wasn't skill that brought players to the top, but attitude. Those with the craving to learn and always improve were the ones that made it. That's the attitude that Harry Kane has and if you believe the likes of Unsworth and Koeman then DCL has it too.

A lot of academies use the TIPS method for scouting and recruiting:

Technique
Insight - how a player reads the game and adapts to situations
Personality - intelligence and will to succeed
Speed - physical and mental

I heard recently that Southampton put biggest focus on speed and personality when scouting as both technique and reading the game can be coached.

 

[davek]

Probably the most political manager ever was Alex Ferguson. To be successful the manager has to have total control and respect of his team. I think a manager has to stamp his authority be that rightly or wrongly, for the long term aims. The biggest issue is how long Koeman is committed to the club's long term plan. I guess this is where Walsh and continuity is key.

Managers like that have a lot of falling outs. That's ok if you're at United - you just isolate and get shut and get a great player in to replace the players alienated. Everton alienate a player like Barkley and we bring in someone is isn't superior.

 

[davek]

I think that you are being very disrespectful to all the skilled players you admire if you think they didn't achieve what they did without massive amounts of dedication , hard work and application.

Then you've misread my posts.