Hard work beats talent if talent doesn't work hard.

[PeregrineT]

Wherein did I state that entertainment or victory? In fact, I stated that one comes with the other usually.

Please, if they did come with the other then everyone would do it, because all owners want to both win and entertain. Mourinho and others proved that false long ago.

 

[mezzrow]

You cant compare the rest of the world of work with an entertainment industry. People do what they can in everyday life to make things work out without the requirement for inspiration or creativity. The division of labour sees to that. Very few people have the privilege of escaping the mundane.

Football is not called working class ballet for nothing. It should seek to uplift us and its professional practitioners have the job of doing that. If I want runners and jumpers I can see that in track and field.

I wouldn't disagree with that. That what gets eyeballs to the platform. I listen to music to hear people do magical things technically with their instrument of choice, which is sometimes seen by others as a a bit heartless. Once you have the eyeballs on your platform, you leverage that to deliver the approved message. If you have little quality to deliver on that day, praise the effort. Tell the viewer he's not watching crap long enough and he'll start to believe it, or stop watching football. Seems to have worked with me, since I'm still watching.

 

[davek]

100 % agreed, That HAS to involve winning matches though. (as you said) But very few teams are able to do both though Dave. Chelsea and Spurs were generally entertaining to watch and won....the rest ??? well Bournemouth were entertaining as was Southampton and Swansea but none actually won anything although Looked pretty on the ball. Deffo a fine line here. I personally don't think we have been exciting to watch since El Bob's first season (moyes's second to last), Thing is, Bob was found out...you need top players to achieve this for a longer period..and I don't include many of our current squad to be up to the task. Pressure and fighting spirit is what we are aiming for at present...So say goodbye to Lukaku, Barkley and Del boy....not fit for purpose...Skillful as you like but very often found wanting when the "going gets tough"....Sorry but I am currently listening to Survivor "eye of the tiger" in the garden

Not all teams will have the ability to entertain, Some have more adventurous managers and money to buy the quality of players to provide the type of flair in order to entertain. But every team has that balance to find...certainly in a league like ours which is tasked with creating thrills and spills and on occasion flamboyant football...that's what the global audience loves about it. So although all PL teams cant be thrilling to watch, there is a duty to get some sort of expansive play in front of people, and rightly so. Some teams will have one or two players that can think and act outside the box, others will have a few more still. I see the balance at Everton ebbing toward the bare minimum at the moment. Players like Barkley and Deulofeu marginalised/sold are not encouraging indicators for us.

And it has nothing to do with sacrificing success. As you point out, the best two in the PL last season were champions and runners up.

 

[Bluebonic]

I agree. But it's all off the ball stuff. Football teams are so described because of what they do with the ball at their feet. Footballers are only accomplished individually by being comfortable on the ball and using it to effect.

The hero worship of a class of players that can run all day and close down is bewildering to me. Just about anyone who is physically fit can do it.

I agree to a point Dave, in that hero worshipping somebody just because they can run is strane, but some of my favourite footballers wouldnt have been half the player they were without the workrate they were blessed with? Bally for example, more recently Pienaar etc.i prefer my skill players to have an engine too

 

[thebluenosebolt]

You cant compare the rest of the world of work with an entertainment industry. People do what they can in everyday life to make things work out without the requirement for inspiration or creativity. The division of labour sees to that. Very few people have the privilege of escaping the mundane.

Football is not called working class ballet for nothing. It should seek to uplift us and its professional practitioners have the job of doing that. If I want runners and jumpers I can see that in track and field.

Oh god... So true. but football today is so far removed from working class ballet its not even funny. Football requires a sky, bt sub (for us non locals) which costs more per year than well...all essential living costs. For me to go with my lads and me dad (huuuuuge blue) the train tickets, pub vouchers and taxis cost about £250 from where I am... This is no longer a working man's sport.... Unless of course you, are truly local.
This ain't a working man's sport anymore.... The players are paid more per week than most (working class) are a decade... Its mad !!!!

 

[davek]

??

You're saying you want wins and dont care how they come about. I'm saying winning is the important thing but it can and usually does come as a result of creative football usually inspired by a team's better players.

 

[davek]

Please, if they did come with the other then everyone would do it, because all owners want to both win and entertain. Mourinho and others proved that false long ago.

No, not necessarily. Better players come at a price. The only way of combatting that as far as most managers in lesser clubs in the PL are concerned is to do the opposite: become dour and overly defensive. That's another reason they'll always be 'down there'...as well as the gulf in cash there's a gulf in imagination.

 

[davek]

I wouldn't disagree with that. That what gets eyeballs to the platform. I listen to music to hear people do magical things technically with their instrument of choice, which is sometimes seen by others as a a bit heartless. Once you have the eyeballs on your platform, you leverage that to deliver the approved message. If you have little quality to deliver on that day, praise the effort. Tell the viewer he's not watching crap long enough and he'll start to believe it, or stop watching football. Seems to have worked with me, since I'm still watching.

Yes, it's something you as an entertainer yourself can easily appreciate.

 

[thebluenosebolt]

No, not necessarily. Better players come at a price. The only way of combatting that as far as most managers in lesser clubs in the PL are concerned is to do the opposite: become dour and overly defensive. That's another reason they'll always be 'down there'...as well as the gulf in cash there's a gulf in imagination.

Such a shame the person I tend to want to disagree with... Talks the most sense. (sometimes) x

 

[Goat]

You're saying you want wins and dont care how they come about. I'm saying winning is the important thing but it can and usually does come as a result of creative football usually inspired by a team's better players.

No mate, many, many teams have been built on the backbone of something other than creative football.

Tika taka is dead, football has evolved, its all about high tempo fast attacking football.

 

[davek]

I agree to a point Dave, in that hero worshipping somebody just because they can run is strane, but some of my favourite footballers wouldnt have been half the player they were without the workrate they were blessed with? Bally for example, more recently Pienaar etc.i prefer my skill players to have an engine too

Yep, cant have one without the other...which is basically what RK was endorsing. However, his actions since being here - marginalising our creative players - makes me think it's a stance with more negative meaning to it.

 

[davek]

Oh god... So true. but football today is so far removed from working class ballet its not even funny. Football requires a sky, bt sub (for us non locals) which costs more per year than well...all essential living costs. For me to go with my lads and me dad (huuuuuge blue) the train tickets, pub vouchers and taxis cost about £250 from where I am... This is no longer a working man's sport.... Unless of course you, are truly local.
This ain't a working man's sport anymore.... The players are paid more per week than most (working class) are a decade... Its mad !!!!

I suppose it depends on your definition of working class. To me, most people are still working class no matter what salaried jobs they have to pay for the match day expense.

 

[dave abrahams]

Alan Harper, jack of all trades master of none. But boy, what an attitude, perhaps one of the most underestimated/appreciated players we ever had.

You can add Kevin Richardson to that and there are quite a few more.

 

[davek]

No mate, many, many teams have been built on the backbone of something other than creative football.

Tika taka is dead, football has evolved, its all about high tempo fast attacking football.

Creative football and innovators will always come through and be the best football teams. The Austrian Wunderteam. the Magical Magyars, the Dutch Clockwork Orange...all historical example of the same commitment to play passing football studded with star players.

The best international team ever: Brazil 1970; the best club team ever, probably the Milan 'Immortals' team of Arrigo Sachi. Both packed with creativity and star players.

It'll ALWAYS be that way, thank goodness.

 

[Goat]

Creative football and innovators will always come through and be the best football teams. The Austrian Wunderteam. the Magical Magyars, the Dutch Clockwork Orange...all historical example of the same commitment to play passing football studded with star players.

The best international team ever: Brazil 1970; the best club team ever, probably the Milan 'Immortals' team of Arrigo Sachi. Both packed with creativity and star players.

It'll ALWAYS be that way, thank goodness.

Wasnt the Milan team built on an unbeatable defence?