Current Affairs EU In or Out

In or Out

  • In

    Votes: 688 67.9%
  • Out

    Votes: 325 32.1%

  • Total voters
    1,013
Status
Not open for further replies.
To try and force through a second referendum where the only options are to leave with a customs union, or to remain, would be the most undemocratic thing to happen in modern British politics.
It's debatable really. I think you could make a legitimate case to say that Austerity coupled with 'populist' agendas and a desire for Libertarianism among Tory ranks, leading to the referendum, was a much greater, and continue s to be a greater threat to UK democracy.

A practice of 'backsliding' as described below, begins the process:

Far-right and Anti Immigration rhetoric on social media and in the press has consistently targeted individual rights (Human Rights Act, Equality Act). Where this becomes popular perception, individual freedoms are at risk. The Brexit process will inevitably have a negative impact on individual rights. UK citizens will lose all rights derived from EU citizenship, including free movement in EU member states. Not just free movement but all rights derived from the EU Charter:

The charter only operates within the scope of EU membership, so won't be relevant in the event of No Deal.

In respect if the referendum itself. By giving so much credibility to a (relativeky speaking) slim majority vote in an advisory referendum (although I accept it is now considered legally bindin), where the campaigns were subject to criticism for the lack of informed debate and uncertain positions, the government is pursuing a mandate that is unclear in its terms, meaning and consequences.

Whatever people like Rees-Mogg and @peteblue might say, people clearly didn't vote for No Deal en masse; they voted for a reaction to the status quo and against the 'status quo' championed by Cameron and Osborne. They voted for anything and everything that was falsely promised by Leave campaingers.

A vote for a speculative and vague position is a vote in support of anything and, therefore nothing at all. The oroblem, as I've alluded to previously in the thread is that Executive action taken under an unclear mandate weakens the authority of Parliament (and the Democracy of the UK). Defaulting to a No Deal is a Political and Democratic failure, as the public by and large cannot easily predict what comes next.

Equally, Leave campaingers knowingly offering the unfeasible (however attractive to the average voter) diminishes the public choice. Voting to implement a form of Brexit that was promised but is ultimately legally unfeasible is meaningless. Likewise, without public consideration of the current options available, knowing that the legal position in a binding vote would've been a voiding of the result, it too diminishes the Democratic process as you cannot practically deliver what was promised.
 
It's debatable really. I think you could make a legitimate case to say that Austerity coupled with 'populist' agendas and a desire for Libertarianism among Tory ranks, leading to the referendum, was a threat to UK democracy.

A practice of 'backsliding' as described below, begins the process:

Far-right and Anti Immigration rhetoric on social media and in the press has consistently targeted individual rights (Human Rights Act, Equality Act). Where this becomes popular perception, individual freedoms are at risk. The Brexit process will inevitably have a negative impact on individual rights. UK citizens will lose all rights derived from EU citizenship, including free movement in EU member states. Not just free movement but all rights derived from the EU Charter. As a result of Brexit, individual freedoms will absolutely be impacted:

The charter only operates within the scope of EU membership, so won't be relevant in the event of No Deal.

In respect if the referendum itself. By giving so much credibility to a (relativeky speaking) slim majority vote in an advisory referendum (although I accept it is now considered legally bindin), where the campaigns were subject to criticism for the lack of informed debate and uncertain positions, the government is pursuing a mandate that is unclear in its terms, meaning and consequences.

Whatever people like Rees-Mogg and @peteblue might say, people clearly didn't vote for No Deal en masse; they voted for a reaction to the status quo and against the 'status quo' championed by Cameron and Osborne. They voted for anything and everything that was falsely promised by Leave campaingers.

A vote for a speculative and vague position is a vote in support of anything and, therefore nothing at all. The oroblem, as I've alluded to previously in the thread is that Executive action taken under an unclear mandate weakens the authority of Parliament (and the Democracy of the UK). Defaulting to a No Deal is a Political and Democratic failure, as the public by and large cannot easily predict what comes next.

Equally, Leave campaingers knowingly offering the unfeasible (however attractive to the average voter) diminishes the public choice. Voting to implement a form of Brexit that was promised but is ultimately legally unfeasible is meaningless. Likewise, without public consideration of the current options available, knowing that the legal position in a binding vote would've been a voiding of the result, it too diminishes the Democratic process as you cannot practically deliver what was promised.
That didn't seem as long when I was typing it...
 
Peter seems to think manifesto promises are sacrosanct :(
That's an odd conclusion to draw from what I have just quoted at you.



One vote, and the outcome of that vote does make a democracy, nor does any vote relating to Brexit. Democracy is the system not the vote itself. You cease to be a democracy if you are unable to adapt or respond to evidence based deliberation and facts.

I know you want YOUR vote honoured, but that is possibly the most simplistic notion of democracy you can ascribe.

And this nonesense about 'well it is in the manifesto' so we cannot renage on it is ludicrous as well. How many policies and manifesto promises have been ditched by this government?

Balancing the books by 2017, dementia Tax, “secure the entitlements of EU nationals in Britain and British nationals in the EU.”, electrifying northern rail line routes, increasing mental health funding in the NHS. All gone despite being manifesto pledges.

Bring back taxing Dementia sufferers because @Joey66 says it's the will of the people!
Just a quick indication of manifesto promises ditched by the government.
 
The most damning indictment of the UK I have ever read.

At least we're not the Ashley Williams or Cuco Martina of Europe ...

Referendum:




Brutally honest as usual mate. However I would add that many Brits would take issue with your give/take comment given that, financially, we are the second largest net contributor after Germany. I appreciate that the EU is about more than just money, but I don't think you can simply ignore that aspect either.

Yes but one of the reasons is that you have quite a large population. If you change it to per capita, it's different. Changes a lot really; and depending on what you read Brexit will cost 35-102 € extra/year/citizen over here. That's nothing compared to all the taxes we're paying so I'm really not bothered; and the financial transfers to all the other regions etc... In 2016 you paid 90 €/a capita. That's the equivalent of a concert ticket for Leonard Cohen (when he was alive obviously). A Belgian paid 109 €. The financial argument never really does it for me. I prefer they make the whole organisation more efficient/fairer; and then I'm very willing to pay more.

It will probably be more in the high end of the estimate of the number above; since they are planning an increase in expenditures for the fight against terrorism, climate change, science, and border security.

Interesting as ever mate. In the end we are the architects of our own disaster. The EU must look upon our own internal political stumblings with total shock and disbelief. As you state on the EU side, the UK leaving the union needs to be managed and controlled in such a way as to not spark similar revolutions. Speaking to my wife's family in Holland they look upon us as complete lunatics!

Even if we leave with a softer brexit we still, will not have a better deal than the one we currently enjoy! It's increasingly frustrating to many in this country who see the German economy slowing down, they see France's spiraling domestic issues and they wonder, what if we stayed in the EU? We could become a greater force within that organisation and become a real influencer, rather than a country that has existed on the EU fringe for so long.

I understand your frustration mate, but still a large proportion of the population is unhappy and they want change and they think this is a good idea so their wishes must be enacted. Preferably in such a way that they can't blame the EU if their life doesn't improve. That's why I'm a bit sceptical about very soft Brexits (off course you have every right to pursue such a thing), but I can practically guarantee the content of the tabloids if such a construction comes into being. I think it's a bit of pipe-dream to see the UK as a potential force of reform tbh. One leg in, one out. Always been the case, can't see that changing suddenly. Usually only for strictly market related subjects; like the patents (credit where credit is due). That's not what we need atm. There are relatively good blue prints about for a better EU; almost all require a bit of extra federalism- not something the UK has traditionally supported.


Btw I still can't get over the fact that the Dutch voted in large numbers for this idiot, I know they have a tradition of voting for extravagant populists but still. The only thing he does is use 'difficult' words (oikophobia...), occasionally recites Greek literature, well generally just being a pompous arse tbh... And then some people go: "hmm I"m going to vote him". And all the while he's just spouting nonsense like: climate change isn't real, general misogyny, his issues with masturbation because apparently it does something bad with the male energy ... He's just a slightly polished Wilders.

694
 
Corbyn has been put on the spot. No messing about, he now has to effectively declare his upcoming manifesto promise regarding Brexit, which will not play well with his voters.....
My guess is they are still in the process of putting manifesto together and they won't fully announce it until we are in an election period.
 
It's debatable really. I think you could make a legitimate case to say that Austerity coupled with 'populist' agendas and a desire for Libertarianism among Tory ranks, leading to the referendum, was a much greater, and continue s to be a greater threat to UK democracy.

A practice of 'backsliding' as described below, begins the process:

Far-right and Anti Immigration rhetoric on social media and in the press has consistently targeted individual rights (Human Rights Act, Equality Act). Where this becomes popular perception, individual freedoms are at risk. The Brexit process will inevitably have a negative impact on individual rights. UK citizens will lose all rights derived from EU citizenship, including free movement in EU member states. Not just free movement but all rights derived from the EU Charter:

The charter only operates within the scope of EU membership, so won't be relevant in the event of No Deal.

In respect if the referendum itself. By giving so much credibility to a (relativeky speaking) slim majority vote in an advisory referendum (although I accept it is now considered legally bindin), where the campaigns were subject to criticism for the lack of informed debate and uncertain positions, the government is pursuing a mandate that is unclear in its terms, meaning and consequences.

Whatever people like Rees-Mogg and @peteblue might say, people clearly didn't vote for No Deal en masse; they voted for a reaction to the status quo and against the 'status quo' championed by Cameron and Osborne. They voted for anything and everything that was falsely promised by Leave campaingers.

A vote for a speculative and vague position is a vote in support of anything and, therefore nothing at all. The oroblem, as I've alluded to previously in the thread is that Executive action taken under an unclear mandate weakens the authority of Parliament (and the Democracy of the UK). Defaulting to a No Deal is a Political and Democratic failure, as the public by and large cannot easily predict what comes next.

Equally, Leave campaingers knowingly offering the unfeasible (however attractive to the average voter) diminishes the public choice. Voting to implement a form of Brexit that was promised but is ultimately legally unfeasible is meaningless. Likewise, without public consideration of the current options available, knowing that the legal position in a binding vote would've been a voiding of the result, it too diminishes the Democratic process as you cannot practically deliver what was promised.

I'm not reading all that. I'm making my point based on the fact that it would be the political establishment making the electorate vote on a substantially different proposition than was previously supported by a majority, just because they disagreed with the result of the biggest democratic exercise in years. It shows our democracy is dead.
 
Watching proceedings in the Commons and Lords over the recent weeks I'm struck by how archaic our system is. All that Honourable Member and Noble Lord guff. It's like Parliament is being run for the amusement of a privileged debating society. It's no surprise the Brexit situation is such a shambles and the important work of running the country is in sclerosis.
 
You could well be right mate. The 53% of Labour constituencies that voted to leave may disagree with you. EU willing, a long extension to article 50 is now looking likely and I can see a general election rather than a peoples vote being the outcome. So I guess we won't have long to wait to find out.


Indeed a most damming figure for Brexit. One thing we all know even as remainer, the EU does not give up until it gets its desired outcome. Before during and after referendum we were told the EU would not accept the result of the EU referendum. However, the Brexit vote collapsed universally by the time election came round, even with two openly remain leaders of the two biggest parties in position. Which suggests to me, other topics take precedent?

And I recall the labour manifesto pledge that everyone gathered round and debated was university fees. And Conservative was there social care tax, which made everyone with an owned home a little Marxists overnight, who knew?

It serves real no purpose to take figures out of there wider context. However, be me my guest it suits my desired outcomes.

Watching proceedings in the Commons and Lords over the recent weeks I'm struck by how archaic our system is. All that Honourable Member and Noble Lord guff. It's like Parliament is being run for the amusement of a privileged debating society. It's no surprise the Brexit situation is such a shambles and the important work of running the country is in sclerosis.

Coalition was your chance when LibDems brought referendum to change how we vote, it lost massively. If implemented it very likely have given UKiP seats in parliament. Democracy never stops!

"5 May 2011: UK – referendum on whether to change the voting system for electing MPs to the House of Commons from first past the post to the alternative vote (no, first past the post will continue to be used to elect MPs to the House of Commons)"

 
Last edited:
Watching proceedings in the Commons and Lords over the recent weeks I'm struck by how archaic our system is. All that Honourable Member and Noble Lord guff. It's like Parliament is being run for the amusement of a privileged debating society. It's no surprise the Brexit situation is such a shambles and the important work of running the country is in sclerosis.
This really. The massive number of people watching them regurly has really exposed the whole thing for the antiquated, old boys club sham that it is. It was one thing when the only people watching the the House of Commons was a the small number of political anoraks but that's all changed due to Brexit. Everyone has seen for themselves what an utter joke our system is and how unfit for purpose it is in 2019. The endless juvenile shouting at each other infuriates me beyond beliefs as does all the pathetic little game-like rituals the simpletons play as they make decisions that affect people's lives and rights!
 
This really. The massive number of people watching them regurly has really exposed the whole thing for the antiquated, old boys club sham that it is. It was one thing when the only people watching the the House of Commons was a the small number of political anoraks but that's all changed due to Brexit. Everyone has seen for themselves what an utter joke our system is and how unfit for purpose it is in 2019. The endless juvenile shouting at each other infuriates me beyond beliefs as does all the pathetic little game-like rituals the simpletons play as they make decisions that affect people's lives and rights!
Maybe have a referendum on it, what could possibly go wrong?
 
I'm not reading all that. I'm making my point based on the fact that it would be the political establishment making the electorate vote on a substantially different proposition than was previously supported by a majority, just because they disagreed with the result of the biggest democratic exercise in years. It shows our democracy is dead.
Well I'll summarise my previous post.

The entire referendum process and the build up to it, was completely undemocratic.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Welcome

Join the Everton conversation today.
Fewer ads, full access, completely free.

🛒 Visit Shop

Support Grand Old Team by checking out our latest Everton gear!
Back
Top