Current Affairs EU In or Out

[ToffeeTim]

Well I'll summarise my previous post.

The entire referendum process and the build up to it, was completely undemocratic.

Giving the people a vote on an issue is not undemocratic. The people then deciding to take a decision which the establishment disagrees with does not make it undemocratic either!

Leavers were not less educated than remainers. Some were more well informed than others of course, but name me a vote or election in history where this has not been the case. No one was duped. No one cheated. The public voted. Over 30m people. We aren't a democracy if we choose to ignore that. A second referendum removes the legitimacy of every future vote taken in this country as the precedent is there to ensure there is another vote, if the political class aren't happy with the outcome. It's a matter of principal.

I ask remainers.... if it had been 52-48 in the opposite direction, would we still be having discussions repeatedly about overturning a democratic decision to remain?

 

[orchard]

A full-blown revolution with action taken to the streets would be more preferable at this point!

Haha, and it would still end up with those representing a small percentage gaining control and gaming the system in their favour

 

[Jebus_lives]

Giving the people a vote on an issue is not undemocratic. The people then deciding to take a decision which the establishment disagrees with does not make it undemocratic either!

Leavers were not less educated than remainers. Some were more well informed than others of course, but name me a vote or election in history where this has not been the case. No one was duped. No one cheated. The public voted. Over 30m people. We aren't a democracy if we choose to ignore that. A second referendum removes the legitimacy of every future vote taken in this country as the precedent is there to ensure there is another vote, if the political class aren't happy with the outcome. It's a matter of principal.

I ask remainers.... if it had been 52-48 in the opposite direction, would we still be having discussions repeatedly about overturning a democratic decision to remain?

The vote was not undemocratic, the process was.
But you can't be arsed reading my post to describe why.

If it favoured Remain, then there would be no need for a second referendum as there wouldn't be a decision made about our membership post withdrawal. Let me know if you can find me a poll that gives the will of the people 100% as No Deal.

Oh and your first sentence completely undermines your last 2 paragraphs.

 

[Jebus_lives]

Haha, and it would still end up with those representing a small percentage gaining control and gaming the system in their favour

Rees-Mogg would have his nanny out in a yellow vest knocking heads with Tommy Robinson.

 

[Armaghtoffee]

I'm not reading all that. I'm making my point based on the fact that it would be the political establishment making the electorate vote on a substantially different proposition than was previously supported by a majority, just because they disagreed with the result of the biggest democratic exercise in years. It shows our democracy is dead.

I don’t get why you are surprised Tim, there is history of Westminster ignoring U.K. votes if it doesn’t suit their agenda. Democracy in the U.K. has been dead for a much longer time than you think;

Redirect Notice

www.google.co.uk

 

[ToffeeTim]

I don’t get why you are surprised Tim, there is history of Westminster ignoring U.K. votes if it doesn’t suit their agenda. Democracy in the U.K. has been dead for a much longer time than you think;

Redirect Notice

www.google.co.uk

IIRC there was a border poll of some description in the 70s. Although I'll admit I don't know the context as it was well before my time and boycotted I understand?

I wouldn't oppose one at all and I'm pretty sure you'll get one in 5-10 years. I just expect the status quo to win it. Also, I don't think there's been a point yet in the history of NI where unification would have won a poll tbh. Undemocratic perhaps, but it's probably right to hold referendums when the outcome is more unclear like we have in the current climate.

 

[Armaghtoffee]

IIRC there was a border poll of some description in the 70s. Although I'll admit I don't know the context as it was well before my time and boycotted I understand?

I wouldn't oppose one at all and I'm pretty sure you'll get one in 5-10 years. I just expect the status quo to win it. Also, I don't think there's been a point yet in the history of NI where unification would have won a poll tbh. Undemocratic perhaps, but it's probably right to hold referendums when the outcome is more unclear like we have in the current climate.

There was Tim and yes it was boycotted but before my time too!

That 1918 vote was a GE though, not a border poll. The irony of this and what is currently happening around implementing the Brexit vote 100 years on is striking.

History moving in a circle.

 

[edge]

• Revoke Article 50 to avoid no-deal — 184 yes, 293 no

That would be the most sensible thing to do right now, i cant see a deal that in any way is better than staying in on offer, no deal which i dont want anyway is off the table revoke it and stop this mess.
As a leave voter it will not wash just sticking a plaster on something and calling it brexit if it leaves us in the position of being half in half out with none of the benifits of either.
If we are going to go revoke ot and come back when the time is right not in a hurry to please May.

 

[TraffordBlue]

I'm not reading all that. I'm making my point based on the fact that it would be the political establishment making the electorate vote on a substantially different proposition than was previously supported by a majority, just because they disagreed with the result of the biggest democratic exercise in years. It shows our democracy is dead.

Except that isn't the reality of the situation is it?

Theresa May did what many Brexiteers wanted by saying we'd leave the Single Market and Customs Union. Which is one of the reasons why negotiations were always destined to run in to the problems they have. She then came up with a deal with the EU, and both remainers AND leavers didn't like what she came back with.

So your point is inaccurate.

The fact it was the biggest democratic exercise in years is irrelevant. It was a flawed referendum, with no credible way of leaving the EU which is the reason we've had such issues.

 

[orchard]

Rees-Mogg would have his nanny out in a yellow vest knocking heads with Tommy Robinson.

With Francois utilising his TA skills, covering them with a stick from a hedge, and Williamson by the gate telling Johnson to go away whilst he's shouting *@#k business as loud as he can...

 

[orchard]

 

[Jebus_lives]

Brilliant that. I read it earlier.

Also, his pinned tweet is terrific too.

 

[Sharpattack]

No people have had enough, they just want Brexit delivered...

This working could do that. Everyone that voted Leave should be delighted, Brexit is being delivered!

Brexit is finished. Once it was postponed, and it will be 'postponed' again, the game was up. The first postponement was a dry run, the next one will be for 12 months. There will be elections to the EU then in 12 months people will, not unreasonably, say that it's been 4 years since the referendum and people will be clamouring for a re-run. All the leavers know that they would have no chance in a second referendum which is why they're running scared

 

[Jebus_lives]

Brexit is finished. Once it was postponed, and it will be 'postponed' again, the game was up. The first postponement was a dry run, the next one will be for 12 months. There will be elections to the EU then in 12 months people will, not unreasonably, say that it's been 4 years since the referendum and people will be clamouring for a re-run. All the leavers know that they would have no chance in a second referendum which is why they're running scared

Hope so

 

[orchard]

Brilliant that. I read it earlier.

Also, his pinned tweet is terrific too.

Yep, and if May, et al, hadn't have been so greedy and hubristic, a lot more people who had voted remain would have been supportive.