I think May can lie blameless on Brexit prior to the referendum, although she has to shoulder blame post referendum as PM. She's been stubborn and isolated from her own government and parliament.
Current Affairs EU In or Out
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The binman chronicles
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That is a misnomer. Most of the 'establishment' want Brexit, even at no deal. Much more likely that the newer MPs with working class backgrounds are the ones trying to stop it.
Alan Whittle
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No, of course not.
The ERG, the rest of the right wing of the Tories, Farage, UKIP would have said;
"Oh well, fair enough".
Barnfred 55
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I recall us having this same discussion before mate. I'm talking about net contribution. We only get back approx one third of our gross contribution in the form of grants/subsidies etc. That is less than any other nation, with only Germany coming close. So when you say that a relationship should be give and take, and in the UK's case it's always take, that's not strictly true is it.
I stated pages back Brexit would never happen, or indeed a mishmash Brexit that would be more costly than being in the current EU -
LBC stated this am 60 percent of MPs are remainers, hence the deadlock - plus a biased. Speaker who is an avid Remainer....
We started off with a leader who had been uselessi n the home office a secret remainer who has bundled a deal together that is so bad it's far worse than being in the EU ....not just the backstop do people realise if the UK signed up to that deal for free trade it has to not undercut any present EU trade deals?
Then free movement in the deal is it really practical or fair to anyone from the EU to come here would be to earn £26,000 plus?
Then we have last nights votes a majority of one - passed by a MPwho wore a prison tag,which ever way that vote went - I remember MPs fighting to stop prisoners from not having the vote in general....
Yet this MP was allowed to leave prison with a tag ?
Double standards?
What Brexit has shown is MPs have not changed much since they were caught fiddling there expenses....
I as a voter would like to leave the EU with a decent Parliment with a good deal - this I am afraid is if we do leave it will be under very poor circumstances, and democracy has bit the dust which in the next GE should be the chance to get rid of the bouncers of MPs that ignored a democratic vote with the highest post war turn out....
LBC stated this am 60 percent of MPs are remainers, hence the deadlock - plus a biased. Speaker who is an avid Remainer....
We started off with a leader who had been uselessi n the home office a secret remainer who has bundled a deal together that is so bad it's far worse than being in the EU ....not just the backstop do people realise if the UK signed up to that deal for free trade it has to not undercut any present EU trade deals?
Then free movement in the deal is it really practical or fair to anyone from the EU to come here would be to earn £26,000 plus?
Then we have last nights votes a majority of one - passed by a MPwho wore a prison tag,which ever way that vote went - I remember MPs fighting to stop prisoners from not having the vote in general....
Yet this MP was allowed to leave prison with a tag ?
Double standards?
What Brexit has shown is MPs have not changed much since they were caught fiddling there expenses....
I as a voter would like to leave the EU with a decent Parliment with a good deal - this I am afraid is if we do leave it will be under very poor circumstances, and democracy has bit the dust which in the next GE should be the chance to get rid of the bouncers of MPs that ignored a democratic vote with the highest post war turn out....
They should've planned to win it tbh, and then they should have actually had a workable plan for leaving instead of just screaming brexit means brexit and a red white and blue brexit for 3 years
zzr45
#MURDERINGSCUM
If that was the case though, revoking article 50 would have passed through parliament with a 60-40 majority..
I think with the rise of populism in the UK, it's inevitable that the EU will be seen by many as the bad guys. This is a notion is shared by both the well educated and the ignorant. The only difference is the well educated can back up their theories with flowery words.
It does look at the moment that we are headed toward a very soft brexit. As a remainer I can accept this through gritted teeth so long as freedom of movement is maintained (thats my red line). As you say the soft Brexit will give further voice to the hard brexiteers who will inevitably point the finger in the direction of Brussels, when the blame lies firmly and squarely with the UK Govt. I think its unavoidable that the UK's exit from the EU will create unrest within the 27 member states with Italy and Poland voicing their displeasure with the EU.
Yeah it's a concern for sure. Baudet is as you say a highly polished Wilders. He shares the same visions, speaks the same mantra he just dresses things up more (speaking in Latin, quoting pre 19th century literature, etc...). Kinda reminds me of Jacob Rees Mogg.
I think he preys on the insecurity of the dutch people, pandering to their concerns on immigration, not so much that the immigrants are taking dutch jobs but more that dutch culture is being watered down by the influx of other cultures who are slow to adopt the dutch way of life, language and culture.
He and his party are working with the very real splits in dutch society and in doing so are appealing to voters on both sides of the barriers. To the well educated "elites" and also to the poorly educated and low paid. We saw exactly the same populist principles applied to the UK Brexit leave campaign with stunning success and I think we can expect more of this throughout Europe. In short Brexit or no Brexit, the EU have a very difficult road to walk in the next 5 years.
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Barnfred 55
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Agree with that Tim, but as regards your final question, then I'm pretty certain that the campaign to leave the EU would actually have gathered strength after the referendum. Had leave been the "48%" they would have taken that as a full on mandate to carry on their campaign.
It's why I believe revoking article 50 or having a people's vote won't resolve anything going forward. If anything it will make the leave contingent even more determined and the country more polarised. The UK could become a very toxic place to live, work and invest.
Indeed, Al.
Mr. Farage had made clear his intentions to accept defeat gracefully
Nigel Farage: Narrow Remain win may lead to second referendum
There could be unstoppable demand for a second EU referendum if Remain wins by only a narrow margin on 23 June, says UKIP leader Nigel Farage.
www.bbc.co.uk
Nigel Farage: Narrow Remain win may lead to second referendum
There could be unstoppable demand for a re-run of the EU referendum if Remain wins by a narrow margin on 23 June, UKIP leader Nigel Farage has said.
gonetomorrow
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I think what did it for me was the sight of Rees-Mogg on his feet in the Commons and carrying on banter with another MP concerning their rival public schools.
The sheer audacity of it beggars belief.
peteblue
Welcome back Wayne
It's debatable really. I think you could make a legitimate case to say that Austerity coupled with 'populist' agendas and a desire for Libertarianism among Tory ranks, leading to the referendum, was a much greater, and continue s to be a greater threat to UK democracy.
A practice of 'backsliding' as described below, begins the process:
What is Rule of Law Backsliding?
verfassungsblog.de
Far-right and Anti Immigration rhetoric on social media and in the press has consistently targeted individual rights (Human Rights Act, Equality Act). Where this becomes popular perception, individual freedoms are at risk. The Brexit process will inevitably have a negative impact on individual rights. UK citizens will lose all rights derived from EU citizenship, including free movement in EU member states. Not just free movement but all rights derived from the EU Charter:
EU Charter of Fundamental Rights
Find the full text of the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights, as well as why we need the charter, and when it applies.ec.europa.eu
The charter only operates within the scope of EU membership, so won't be relevant in the event of No Deal.
In respect if the referendum itself. By giving so much credibility to a (relativeky speaking) slim majority vote in an advisory referendum (although I accept it is now considered legally bindin), where the campaigns were subject to criticism for the lack of informed debate and uncertain positions, the government is pursuing a mandate that is unclear in its terms, meaning and consequences.
Whatever people like Rees-Mogg and @peteblue might say, people clearly didn't vote for No Deal en masse; they voted for a reaction to the status quo and against the 'status quo' championed by Cameron and Osborne. They voted for anything and everything that was falsely promised by Leave campaingers.
A vote for a speculative and vague position is a vote in support of anything and, therefore nothing at all. The oroblem, as I've alluded to previously in the thread is that Executive action taken under an unclear mandate weakens the authority of Parliament (and the Democracy of the UK). Defaulting to a No Deal is a Political and Democratic failure, as the public by and large cannot easily predict what comes next.
Equally, Leave campaingers knowingly offering the unfeasible (however attractive to the average voter) diminishes the public choice. Voting to implement a form of Brexit that was promised but is ultimately legally unfeasible is meaningless. Likewise, without public consideration of the current options available, knowing that the legal position in a binding vote would've been a voiding of the result, it too diminishes the Democratic process as you cannot practically deliver what was promised.
I didn’t vote for no deal. I voted to leave. I expected a deal to be done, but I still want to leave. If there is a choice between a deal that keeps us in the Eu then I would vote no deal. Simple really.....
So you're happy with a second referendum then?
peteblue
Welcome back Wayne
Who knows ? She also said no deal is better than a bad deal. The speaker said he was going to step down and didn’t. I don’t believe a word any of them say.....
peteblue
Welcome back Wayne
No, I would like the result of the first referendum carried out. Leave the EU....
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