Current Affairs Coronavirus Thread - Serious stuff !!!

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It wouldn't be the first time.

The overall point though is that wherever it was found early on it could and should have been contained. That was down to a failure of the international order - more precisely a breakdown of that order in the last decade.

Lessons learned today, will be relevant for a short period of time mate, they will be forgotten in the decades to come.

We generally have a pandemic once every 100 years - this is nothing new and we were due this one and pre-warned, even had a couple of warning shot virus's and marvelled at our modern age getting ahead of nature when we got out in front of them, all empires eventually fall. We will be caught with our pants down again in the future, no doubt.

However another dinosaur and lemon will be chatting about it then! lol
 
Oh yeah, international travel would mean it couldn't have been contained in Hubei.

Too many medical 'experts', like Chris Whitty have sung the economic argument against restrict travel from affected areas. And certainly in the UK case not to test at airports and/or quarantine. Madness.
 
Too many medical 'experts', like Chris Whitty have sung the economic argument against restrict travel from affected areas. And certainly in the UK case not to test at airports and/or quarantine. Madness.

'Expert' :lol: Heavens. I suppose his degrees in medicine, physiology, tropical medicine, epidemiology, medical law and business, along with a few decades experience working in epidemiology pale in significance to your own expertise in...?

As you say, madness.
 
It will be interesting to see what they come out with. There will obviously be certain bits of data that are going to be available to SAGE that external bodies, such as this one or the Royal Society, probably won't have access to. There's no competition argument for not releasing the data that shows their working, so I can only think of a few reasons why they wouldn't do so.

a) The data shows the magnitude of the problem, and they think the public can't handle the truth
b) The data shows that government actions diverge from what the scientists are recommending
c) It's just another example of the culture of secrecy that was evident during the Brexit negotiations

In some ways it is peculiar though, as Cummings has banged on at length about recruiting 'weirdos', and what that basically means is people from a range of backgrounds who are emboldened to speak up, even if it goes against the grain. We see with Johnson's cabinet appointments that he has stacked the cabinet with sycophants to the Brexit cause (especially when one of those (Patel) is currently fighting allegations she has bullied senior staff from their jobs because they disagreed with her), and the lack of representatives in Sage that aren't employees of the government doesn't suggest it's either especially diverse or especially emboldened to speak up.

It could all be different on the inside of course, and we don't really have any insights into the workings of the committee.
Agree with a lot of that Bruce but would also like to add to it.

You mention this new committee will not have access to some of the material SAGE does, which is fair enough. But what it does have access to is hindsight. My experience of King during this crisis is that he has been very critical of the government and the advice it has been receiving, and I have found myself agreeing with a lot of what he has said. But I've also found some of his comments self serving and made with the benefit of hindsight. If this new committee is there to provide advice and recommendations on dealing with ongoing issues, such as how to manage coming out of lockdown, or ideas on how to manage an control testing and contact tracing, then I support it fully. However my fear is that it will turn into a mini inquest into how the current incumbents have handled the crisis, which given that we're probably not even half way through it will probably do more harm than good. I hope my fears are unwarranted.

I totally agree with you that the government need to be more open and transparent in their handling of this pandemic. Most people are following shutdown instructions but I put this down to fear, rather than any great level of trust in our government. I've long been of the opinion that the level of talent and expertise within our government is poor, both in terms of our MPs and within permanent government. The very best brains are attracted to the private sector, and why wouldn't they given they could earn 7 figure incomes rather than low six figure or even 5 figure when you consider an MPs salary.

The amount of information being given out by SAGE is zilch. As you know, each SAGE committee is set up according to the underlying crisis, and is supposed to comprise the best brains from government, academia and the private sector. I've been trying to find out who comprises this current SAGE committee as I strongly suspect it consists of mainly government people and selected academics. So it was interesting to see your comments on this specific point in your post. Have you seen an actual list of committee members or is it just your opinion that it is filled with government staff that you are expressing as fact. It would be good if you have seen evidence by the way, because it would support my theory, so I'm not trying to trip you up here.

Where I disagree with you is your assumption that the committee would be chosen at ministerial level. They would have the final say for sure, but their decisions would have been based purely on the advice/recommendations from permanent staff.. So I could see the turn of events going like this. Johnson instructing Hancock to set up a SAGE committee to deal with the crisis. Hancock in turn would have asked either the CSO or the CMO to put the arrangements in place and to come up with a list of people to be on the committee. This stinks of government protectionism for me, of keeping things in house. They would not want anybody from the private sector coming in because they would most probably be scared that they would disagree and offer much different advice. Hopefully all of this will come out in a full enquiry in the fullness of time, and on something of this magnitude, the Government will have to publish the findings of the enquiry. The two things I'm most interested in is when, i.e at what stage in the pandemic, did Johnson commit to a SAGE committee being set up. And who drew up the list and what names were on that list?. IMO they were key moments in how this government ended up tackling this crisis.

As regards Patel, yeah I'm not a fan. Her previous role within the foreign office leaves massive question marks over integrity. Like many politicians these days I believe that she is nowhere near talented enough or experienced enough for the high position she currently enjoys, and as you know, even as a Brexiteer, I was far from enamoured by her proposed immigration bill that had more holes in it than a piece of Dutch cheese. But if my concern about this SAGE committee are true, then she was exactly the type of minister we needed in charge on Health, rather than that wimp Hancock. At least she may have stood up to them, questioned some of their advice and, hopefully, insisted on more people being drafted in from the private sector, because quite simply that's were all of the expertise is. The people you want in charge in a crisis are not necessarily those you would want in charge in normal times.
 
That's 2 people out of the 50 identified.
All mentioned there should be there, at least by virtue of the fact they are scientists of one description or another.

A history graduate is a bit of a standout...which is why Nosferatu was left off the list.
 
I’ve experienced both and hotdesking has had a massively positive impact on the team dynamic, both from a personal and professional perspective. We are much closer as a team and work much better since we’ve done it. It’s also allowed for home working which is a massive positive too.
I suppose it depends on where you work and what job you do. In my experience it always ended in arguments over who normally sits where etc.
 
Agree with a lot of that Bruce but would also like to add to it.

You mention this new committee will not have access to some of the material SAGE does, which is fair enough. But what it does have access to is hindsight. My experience of King during this crisis is that he has been very critical of the government and the advice it has been receiving, and I have found myself agreeing with a lot of what he has said. But I've also found some of his comments self serving and made with the benefit of hindsight. If this new committee is there to provide advice and recommendations on dealing with ongoing issues, such as how to manage coming out of lockdown, or ideas on how to manage an control testing and contact tracing, then I support it fully. However my fear is that it will turn into a mini inquest into how the current incumbents have handled the crisis, which given that we're probably not even half way through it will probably do more harm than good. I hope my fears are unwarranted.

I totally agree with you that the government need to be more open and transparent in their handling of this pandemic. Most people are following shutdown instructions but I put this down to fear, rather than any great level of trust in our government. I've long been of the opinion that the level of talent and expertise within our government is poor, both in terms of our MPs and within permanent government. The very best brains are attracted to the private sector, and why wouldn't they given they could earn 7 figure incomes rather than low six figure or even 5 figure when you consider an MPs salary.

The amount of information being given out by SAGE is zilch. As you know, each SAGE committee is set up according to the underlying crisis, and is supposed to comprise the best brains from government, academia and the private sector. I've been trying to find out who comprises this current SAGE committee as I strongly suspect it consists of mainly government people and selected academics. So it was interesting to see your comments on this specific point in your post. Have you seen an actual list of committee members or is it just your opinion that it is filled with government staff that you are expressing as fact. It would be good if you have seen evidence by the way, because it would support my theory, so I'm not trying to trip you up here.

Where I disagree with you is your assumption that the committee would be chosen at ministerial level. They would have the final say for sure, but their decisions would have been based purely on the advice/recommendations from permanent staff.. So I could see the turn of events going like this. Johnson instructing Hancock to set up a SAGE committee to deal with the crisis. Hancock in turn would have asked either the CSO or the CMO to put the arrangements in place and to come up with a list of people to be on the committee. This stinks of government protectionism for me, of keeping things in house. They would not want anybody from the private sector coming in because they would most probably be scared that they would disagree and offer much different advice. Hopefully all of this will come out in a full enquiry in the fullness of time, and on something of this magnitude, the Government will have to publish the findings of the enquiry. The two things I'm most interested in is when, i.e at what stage in the pandemic, did Johnson commit to a SAGE committee being set up. And who drew up the list and what names were on that list?. IMO they were key moments in how this government ended up tackling this crisis.

As regards Patel, yeah I'm not a fan. Her previous role within the foreign office leaves massive question marks over integrity. Like many politicians these days I believe that she is nowhere near talented enough or experienced enough for the high position she currently enjoys, and as you know, even as a Brexiteer, I was far from enamoured by her proposed immigration bill that had more holes in it than a piece of Dutch cheese. But if my concern about this SAGE committee are true, then she was exactly the type of minister we needed in charge on Health, rather than that wimp Hancock. At least she may have stood up to them, questioned some of their advice and, hopefully, insisted on more people being drafted in from the private sector, because quite simply that's were all of the expertise is. The people you want in charge in a crisis are not necessarily those you would want in charge in normal times.

See my post above mate.
 
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