Current Affairs Coronavirus Thread - Serious stuff !!!

[Neiler]

Great post mate.

It seems to be that a lot of people don’t understand how important on a personal level it is for the elderly to return home as quickly as possible from hospital.

From my own experiences with family members, there’s a very real fear that hospitals are where old people go to die and also the factor in the lack of dignity too. Plus the hospitals desperately need the beds too.

So the MURDER, DEATH and SCUM mantra being trotted out with regards to old people being returned to care homes / residential homes after being admitted with the virus isn’t as straightforward as it seems.

Old people aren’t being booted out of hospitals without reason, as there’s well established protocols to be followed at every stage from admission to discharge.

It’s an excellent point, frailty can be supported in health care particularly acute health care, it’s an issue not just for older people, but people with disabilities, even those with comorbidities, weight issues, addiction issues, mental health etc.

Im afraid though their is often an economy of footfall in hospital and the above groups can often be rushed out of acute care due to concern of being “bed blockers”.

 

[zzr45]

Clown.

Outbreak of deadly flu hits care homes for elderly

Health officials say the death rate in care homes is the highest they have seen for several years

www.theguardian.com

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/828122/Briefing_2_Place_and_cause_of_death_for_permanent_and_temporary_residents_of_care_homes.pdf

Dave, there's published stats and reports that show flu kills in care homes. Infectious diseases spread in care homes. This is a fact. The Flu can be mitigated by the use of vaccines. Covid-19 can not. As such it stands to reason that this will be more deadly.

It also means that we know that diseases such as these can be expected to kill people in care homes.

It's not tact approval of a political party, it is unfortunately, at this stage, a fact of life. Hopefully, lessons will be learned that can reduce the risk of viruses within care homes in future. Before you start trying to do the entire 'yOu WaNt PePlE tO dIe!!!' thing, no, I don't.

Please do let me know what you find difficult to comprehend.

 

[tsubaki]

Department of health death total in all settings = 26,097

Financial Times death total in all settings using all the available data = 47,000

The Daily Mail came up with a figure of 33,000 last night and that came from Government own statistics.

Anyone with an ounce integrity would be asking why are there such a big margins...

A lot of the confusion is going to be down to how figures are reported - counting hospital deaths daily was the easy bit, and they had a lot of problems organizing that.

Care home deaths and "community" deaths are even more complex as care home residents weren't tested on anything like a significant level until recently, and the people who've died at home are very likely to have had no medical attention whatsoever, never mind a test. These deaths are usually reported via the coroner (with either GP and/or police reporting a death to them unless its expected), so need to go through that process before being reported and *if* the same rules are followed as hospital deaths they are going to have to do a limited post mortem activity to determine whether they had this or not.

Either way they gain not a lot from including them in the already meaningless "daily" figures, apart from further confusing people who will be told that the current total is 20000-odd but then will be told in a couple of months that it was actually 30000+ and will inevitably think they've been lied to.

As for the alternate statistics, IIRC the FT's were from actuaries (so a well-educated, well-paid guess) and the Mail might as well have pulled the figures out of its collective arse, such is its shameful record.

The official figures probably become more valid the longer you get from the point where the count stopped - eg: the overall total for March is going to be more accurate now than it was on April 2nd, because they've had more time to count properly and for the deaths to trickle in from the various sources.

 

[Kenshin]

No one is doing that though. Deaths recorded from care homes are counted only if positively tested for it.

Ok

Would you say someone who was very ill with their heart , had a heart transplant in the past and was admitted to hospital due to heart failure died because of covid-19? If that was the reason given?

 

[tsubaki]

Ok

Would you say someone who was very ill with their heart , had a heart transplant in the past and was admitted to hospital due to heart failure died because of covid-19? If that was the reason given?

If they have tested positive, they will be counted as a COVID death but it might not go down on the death certificate as caused by it.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

A lot of the confusion is going to be down to how figures are reported - counting hospital deaths daily was the easy bit, and they had a lot of problems organizing that.

Care home deaths and "community" deaths are even more complex as care home residents weren't tested on anything like a significant level until recently, and the people who've died at home are very likely to have had no medical attention whatsoever, never mind a test. These deaths are usually reported via the coroner (with either GP and/or police reporting a death to them unless its expected), so need to go through that process before being reported and *if* the same rules are followed as hospital deaths they are going to have to do a limited post mortem activity to determine whether they had this or not.

Either way they gain not a lot from including them in the already meaningless "daily" figures, apart from further confusing people who will be told that the current total is 20000-odd but then will be told in a couple of months that it was actually 30000+ and will inevitably think they've been lied to.

As for the alternate statistics, IIRC the FT's were from actuaries (so a well-educated, well-paid guess) and the Mail might as well have pulled the figures out of its collective arse, such is its shameful record.

The official figures probably become more valid the longer you get from the point where the count stopped - eg: the overall total for March is going to be more accurate now than it was on April 2nd, because they've had more time to count properly and for the deaths to trickle in from the various sources.

So we can safely assume that 26097 deaths is very much conservative, and not be applauded as some sort of success.

 

[Kenshin]

If they have tested positive, they will be counted as a COVID death but it might not go down on the death certificate as caused by it.

So what's the difference?

One adds to a total that is published in the media on a daily basis. The other is the truth.

What's the difference between a patient dying of covid-19 and with covid-19? If the answer is nothing then there is the problem.

I'm not downplaying anything here, I'm well aware of what is happening and sure as hell aware of the risks involved. We are in a pandemic , people are dying because of covid-19 and that number is massive.

Just, would that number be so big and worst in Europe etc if the deaths were recorded accurately based on cause of death? How many people have been wrongly classed as covid-19 related? We could be talking a few thousand at the very least, maybe more.

and there is also the start of the conspiracy theory (which I'm not peddling by the way), which says the media use of coronavirus is far too specific , rather than use covid-19, as if anything under that umbrella is responsible. But then that's all that is , haven't a clue why they would do that personally.

 

[Barnfred 55]

While recognising you may have expierence mate, that’s a very narrow view of residential care, yes they do support end of life care but many people can and do live a rich life of worth with supported independence. There are varying degrees of limits that impact people, so a plan of game of enablement to maximise quality of life is key. You make it sound like loads of people with a few months waiting around to die, I often these environments are rich, empowering and enabling, they form their communities bonds and relationships, there is so much wisdom in these places. That sounds not to be your experience and that regrettable and unfortunate.

There is something uncomfortable about how you frame residential care and the ultimate fragility of life there as a universal narrative, weighed against the absolute abandonment of society to residential care settings during this. It’s not a case of people are waiting to die anyway, so it may as well be this.

Also just to say family can’t sign any resuscitation order for their family member, unless you have a EPA in place and even then that power has to be granted.

Don't confuse care homes with the likes of sheltered accommodation.

My wife had an EPA for her mum. Her uncle was of sound mind and signed his own. My mum didn't and we, the family, had to give written consent before doctor would confirm. They won't agree without family consent,not in my experience

 

[tsubaki]

So what's the difference?

One adds to a total that is published in the media on a daily basis. The other is the truth.

What's the difference between a patient dying of covid-19 and with covid-19? If the answer is nothing then there is the problem.

I'm not downplaying anything here, I'm well aware of what is happening and sure as hell aware of the risks involved. We are in a pandemic , people are dying because of covid-19 and that number is massive.

Just, would that number be so big and worst in Europe etc if the deaths were recorded accurately based on cause of death? How many people have been wrongly classed as covid-19 related? We could be talking a few thousand at the very least, maybe more.

and there is also the start of the conspiracy theory (which I'm not peddling by the way), which says the media use of coronavirus is far too specific , rather than use covid-19, as if anything under that umbrella is responsible. But then that's all that is , haven't a clue why they would do that personally.

They are both truths, though.

The main reason for there being a difference is probably that in a pandemic there isn't going to be the capacity to determine whether most people / the bloke died from his known heart condition or COVID, so the state cannot say for certainty which is which (especially given that this hits people with known conditions worse).

 

[tsubaki]

So we can safely assume that 26097 deaths is very much conservative, and not be applauded as some sort of success.

Certainly not applauded, but I find it hard to believe it is a number which could go down without raising some severe red flags.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

So what's the difference?

One adds to a total that is published in the media on a daily basis. The other is the truth.

What's the difference between a patient dying of covid-19 and with covid-19? If the answer is nothing then there is the problem.

I'm not downplaying anything here, I'm well aware of what is happening and sure as hell aware of the risks involved. We are in a pandemic , people are dying because of covid-19 and that number is massive.

Just, would that number be so big and worst in Europe etc if the deaths were recorded accurately based on cause of death? How many people have been wrongly classed as covid-19 related? We could be talking a few thousand at the very least, maybe more.

and there is also the start of the conspiracy theory (which I'm not peddling by the way), which says the media use of coronavirus is far too specific , rather than use covid-19, as if anything under that umbrella is responsible. But then that's all that is , haven't a clue why they would do that personally.

Oh please. Just look at the net increase in deaths compared to the 5 year average, for the weeks since COVID took hold here.

 

[tsubaki]

Oh please. Just look at the net increase in deaths compared to the 5 year average, for the weeks since COVID took hold here.

Of course that is likely to be the best indicator of the pandemic's impact, both directly and indirectly.

 

[Neiler]

Don't confuse care homes with the likes of sheltered accommodation.

My wife had an EPA for her mum. Her uncle was of sound mind and signed his own. My mum didn't and we, the family, had to give written consent before doctor would confirm. They won't agree without family consent,not in my experience

I don’t believe I am, the model shouldn’t be different either, nor the rights involved.

Yout wife has a right if stated in an EPA if healthcare was stated in the articles, like you say if your uncle had capacity it was his decision. Ultimately if either of those two things aren’t there, it’s a medical decision - best practice is to consult the family, if everything is congruent, you might be asked to sign something to say you were consulted for the doctors accountability, but its a medical decision. It can get quite messy when the medical team and family disagree. I’ll stop now as these are very personal circumstances, but mention it to underline the civil and human right of older people. Which is of course the theme of discussion this evening with contrasting opinions.

I think we will disagree on the mater, but very best wishes to you and may I offer sympathies for what sounds like a hard few years of loss for you and those closest.

 

[LinekersLegs]

Interesting thread

 

[mill]

China knew it went from human to human, but would not tell the rest of the world, in fact they stated that it didn’t. However they knew the reality because they were also testing the drug at their Wuhan institute. The day after they had to finally admit it went human to human they slapped in the patent. They knew all along and lied to the rest of the world.....

Why does it bother you so much that they lied?