Current Affairs Ukraine

[roydo]

If Ukraine dispute the occupation can they ever be a member of NATO under its current rules?

It is NATO so they will ignore what rules they want but that would likely put us into war with Russia.

Which is why Ukraine, as is, wont ever be a member of NATO. A good mate like, but not under the "attack one, attack all" treaty.

 

[Deleted member 48881]

They said they needed 1000 howitzers earlier in the week, and 500 MLRS, 500 tanks and various other things to push the Russians back.

That is approaching the number of howitzers and MRLS that the US has in its arsenal, total; to then say that they won't negotiate until the Russians are pushed out is to say they are not going to negotiate.

That is their choice, but doing that harms them, their people, the West, Russia and the rest of the world and increases the risk of an absolute global horror taking place (nuclear conflict, mass starvation, mass disorder, even further damage to the climate or a mix of those).

They should have been in constant, in depth and comprehensive talks since the invasion started - yes, the Russians are going to mess about (as everyone does in war negotiations when they think they are winning) but the world needs to either see peace or to see Ukraine exhaust every effort diplomatically so that the impact of a prolonged war on everyone else can be justified.

But you are not talking about Ukrainian preconditions DURING the talks with Russia here. Ukraine being greedy with the West (not how I see it) is another issue

 

[tsubaki]

But you are not talking about Ukrainian preconditions DURING the talks with Russia here. Ukraine being greedy with the West (not how I see it) is another issue

I am - they should be in serious talks now, without preconditions (which are for the talks to take place, not for a ceasefire); they are not (or at least are not in public).

 

[FrenchDarrenBent]

Redirect Notice

Grim reading that. The Russians are also toying with the idea to close the Nordstream 1 pipeline to destabilize Germany.

The only one paying for these sanctions, it seems, is the western working/middle class and the African nations depending on the Russian/Ukrainian harvest(or at least: that'll be the slogan of some political parties next election cycle).

 

[PhilM]

I'm still wondering why the US and NATO aren't calling for a ceasefire.

As each day brings Ukraine closer to the west (NATO, EU etc) and inflicts more damage to an already reeling Russian military and political system.

While the sanctions may not have had the impact we’d have hoped, as highlighted by the above article, they are slowly but surely chipping away.

Russia - militarily, economically and politically - will be far weaker because of this war, so perhaps regrettably there’ll be those who’ll want it to the continue.

That’s before considering the long-term implications of allowing Russia to retain parts of Ukraine they desired - e.g. it being a success for them.

 

[Mutzo Nutzo]

They said they needed 1000 howitzers earlier in the week, and 500 MLRS, 500 tanks and various other things to push the Russians back.

That is approaching the number of howitzers and MRLS that the US has in its arsenal, total; to then say that they won't negotiate until the Russians are pushed out is to say they are not going to negotiate.

That is their choice, but doing that harms them, their people, the West, Russia and the rest of the world and increases the risk of an absolute global horror taking place (nuclear conflict, mass starvation, mass disorder, even further damage to the climate or a mix of those).

They should have been in constant, in depth and comprehensive talks since the invasion started - yes, the Russians are going to mess about (as everyone does in war negotiations when they think they are winning) but the world needs to either see peace or to see Ukraine exhaust every effort diplomatically so that the impact of a prolonged war on everyone else can be justified.

I think Ukraine walked away from talks when Russians started raping women and children and cutting the ears off prisoners before executing them.

TBH I don’t know how they carried on talks for so long.

 

[tsubaki]

I think Ukraine walked away from talks when Russians started raping women and children and cutting the ears off prisoners before executing them.

TBH I don’t know how they carried on talks for so long.

They've gone through that in 2014, all the years since and have done it back in the 30s and 40s plus we saw it in Chechnya, Dagestan, South Ossetia and other though. That the Russian Army might behave in that way is not something that was unexpected.

 

[PhilM]

 

[Deleted member 48881]

 

[peteblue]

They said they needed 1000 howitzers earlier in the week, and 500 MLRS, 500 tanks and various other things to push the Russians back.

That is approaching the number of howitzers and MRLS that the US has in its arsenal, total; to then say that they won't negotiate until the Russians are pushed out is to say they are not going to negotiate.

That is their choice, but doing that harms them, their people, the West, Russia and the rest of the world and increases the risk of an absolute global horror taking place (nuclear conflict, mass starvation, mass disorder, even further damage to the climate or a mix of those).

They should have been in constant, in depth and comprehensive talks since the invasion started - yes, the Russians are going to mess about (as everyone does in war negotiations when they think they are winning) but the world needs to either see peace or to see Ukraine exhaust every effort diplomatically so that the impact of a prolonged war on everyone else can be justified.

Have you actually twigged yet that Ukraine has invaded no one. Russia, like Germany before it has invaded Ukraine. There really is nothing to negotiate. Russia has to withdraw or be defeated. allowing Putin to ‘keep a bit’ is an open invitation to invade Eastern Europe and then ‘keep a bit’. I hope Ukraine, with our help, absolutely batter Russia and push them out. No ‘give them a bit’ and no ‘give them a way to save face’…because if that happens, some other poor sods will go through all this again.….

 

[tsubaki]

Have you actually twigged yet that Ukraine has invaded no one. Russia, like Germany before it has invaded Ukraine. There really is nothing to negotiate. Russia has to withdraw or be defeated. allowing Putin to ‘keep a bit’ is an open invitation to invade Eastern Europe and then ‘keep a bit’. I hope Ukraine, with our help, absolutely batter Russia and push them out. No ‘give them a bit’ and no ‘give them a way to save face’…because if that happens, some other poor sods will go through all this again.….

Have you actually twigged yet that defeating Russia militarily - never mind "absolutely batter" - might not actually be possible?

 

[Mutzo Nutzo]

Have you actually twigged yet that defeating Russia militarily - never mind "absolutely batter" - might not actually be possible?

I’d say that strategically Russia’s already lost this one.

Their core reason for invading was in response to the growing threat of NATO on their border. By invading Ukraine they’ve managed to strengthen NATO’s resolve, no longer tripwire forces in the Baltic states but now heavy brigades are being deployed along with permanent bases and supply depots. He’s also likely to have Finland and Sweden as NATO forces on his northern borders now.

Poland has gone nuts and is buying new military hardware like it’s going out of fashion. Even Germany is looking and talking seriously about re-arming.

So yeah I’d say strategically he’s lost this one. Putin has by his action reenergised NATO.

 

[davids]

Have you actually twigged yet that defeating Russia militarily - never mind "absolutely batter" - might not actually be possible?

US know this,but while they can keep Ukraine fighting their economy benefits. They are the world's largest producer of oil and gas so it's raining money.

 

[emir]

So let me get this straight. Boris decided to pull out of an important meeting in Doncaster concerning domestic issues and decided to fly to Kyiv instead to meet with Zelensky concerning matters that have no impact on the British people? The British people need to vote this clown out of office as soon as possible.

 

[tsubaki]

I’d say that strategically Russia’s already lost this one.

Their core reason for invading was in response to the growing threat of NATO on their border. By invading Ukraine they’ve managed to strengthen NATO’s resolve, no longer tripwire forces in the Baltic states but now heavy brigades are being deployed along with permanent bases and supply depots. He’s also likely to have Finland and Sweden as NATO forces on his northern borders now.

Poland has gone nuts and is buying new military hardware like it’s going out of fashion. Even Germany is looking and talking seriously about re-arming.

So yeah I’d say strategically he’s lost this one. Putin has by his action reenergised NATO.

Was it, though?

I mean, that is what our media and politicians keep saying but the Russians have repeatedly been saying that this is about dismantling the unipolar system that existed after 1989.

I think there is every chance they'll do that, given the effects of this war on the rest of the world - increased food / fertilizer prices, increased energy prices, increased transportation costs - basically, we are creating a global problem that only Russia can fix.

When you add that to the short-sighted idiocy that is failing to do anything meaningful about climate change (in terms of help for the countries suffering now or reigning ourselves in), the diplomatic effort Russia and China have been putting in for years and failing to help with vaccines and medicine costs (for which now allowing generic COVID vaccines is the most stupid) then there is no reason to think they've "lost".