Current Affairs Ukraine

[Spadge Vernacular]

The point I am making is people who chose not to fight for somebody else’s political cause/an ambitious politician are not necessarily traitors or cowards - whatever their nationality.

By the same token, those who fight are not necessarily heroes or brave.

I'm not sure Ukraine being invaded is Zelenskyys political cause. Its a fight for survival.

Do you think that those wanting others to fight their battle for them, because this is a matter for all Ukraine, should just be given a pass?

I'd be more sympathetic to your view if we considered the Russian situation, because the Russians being sent to their deaths are being forced to do this because Putin thinks its a good idea, no other reason. It's not the same consideration for Ukrainians though.

Citizens of a country do have a duty to one another, in good times and bad.

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

Russia warns US and Europe over reports Ukraine may get its seized assets

Kremlin threatens ‘serious consequences’ if there is an unprecedented seizure of Russian assets held abroad

amp.theguardian.com

 

[Rita_Poon]

Russia warns US and Europe over reports Ukraine may get its seized assets

Kremlin threatens ‘serious consequences’ if there is an unprecedented seizure of Russian assets held abroad

amp.theguardian.com

Serious consequences?

novichok all round then? commit boots on the ground on another front? germany ended up on it's knees in 1918 and suffered decades of economic reprisal, putin is marching russia into pariah state permanently, cut em off and leave em in the gutter. No fleet street property, no billionaire kids to oxford, no luxury yachts in harbour, finish them, all of them.

 

[Yarrgh]

Serious consequences?

novichok all round then? commit boots on the ground on another front? germany ended up on it's knees in 1918 and suffered decades of economic reprisal, putin is marching russia into pariah state permanently, cut em off and leave em in the gutter. No fleet street property, no billionaire kids to oxford, no luxury yachts in harbour, finish them, all of them.

Good job that didn't directly causing another war then.

Russian oligarchs are a blight on Russians and everyone else. We don't want to end up with Russia like post WWI Germany but closer to post WWII West Germany where they own their behaviour and help integrate a democratic country into a leading role in European and World politics as a respected and respectable partner.

If anyone knows how to do that, address your entries to the Nobel Peace Prize Committee on the back of a postcard.

 

[Rita_Poon]

Good job that didn't directly causing another war then.

Russian oligarchs are a blight on Russians and everyone else. We don't want to end up with Russia like post WWI Germany but closer to post WWII West Germany where they own their behaviour and help integrate a democratic country into a leading role in European and World politics as a respected and respectable partner.

If anyone knows how to do that, address your entries to the Nobel Peace Prize Committee on the back of a postcard.

They're to wealthy in natural resources to keep down like the world did germany in 1918. But billions only counts when you can spend it, so deny them the niceties the west has to offer, no more peerages, no more travels to italy on the sly with mp's and a private jet full of brass, no more French riviera, no more Cambridge education or Harvard, no more investing. Leave them to it, cut them out, a return to the coldest of cold wars is just fine, isolationism will define them. (out of football, out of athletics, nothing, your lot aint welcome here no more!)

 

[stipe]

Good job that didn't directly causing another war then.

Russian oligarchs are a blight on Russians and everyone else. We don't want to end up with Russia like post WWI Germany but closer to post WWII West Germany where they own their behaviour and help integrate a democratic country into a leading role in European and World politics as a respected and respectable partner.

If anyone knows how to do that, address your entries to the Nobel Peace Prize Committee on the back of a postcard.

Russia was always seen as "other" rather than as part of European club. Even during Napoleonic wars or WW1/WW2 when they were integral part of coalitions, they were always looked at suspiciously/with fear.
Feeling is mutual though, they always looked at Europe with fear or jealousy too.

So no, you will never integrate Russia to be central/willing part of the European/Western club no matter what type of government they are ruled, Russia is simply too big and with too many centuries of history of mutual suspicion/fear and national myth making of "evil Europe" or vice versa.

Germany or better to say German world was always central/integral part of Europe (Holy Roman Empire, Habsburgs, Prussia etc...) and most importantly they were completely defeated and occupied in 1945 and new Germany pretty much shaped on American image after that.

There is a reason why Russian propaganda (or average Russian view) call Germany and rest of Europe as American poodle now. I mean our neighbors (Serbia) are the same. When i open comments section of average Serbian news portal its usually goes like this:
"America evil/fault using Ukrainians as cannon fodder, Russia is always right, rest of Europe is under American occupation"

 

[Yarrgh]

Russia was always seen as "other" rather than as part of European club. Even during Napoleonic wars or WW1/WW2 when they were integral part of coalitions, they were always looked at suspiciously/with fear.
Feeling is mutual though, they always looked at Europe with fear or jealousy too.

So no, you will never integrate Russia to be central/willing part of the European/Western club no matter what type of government they are ruled, Russia is simply too big and with too many centuries of history of mutual suspicion/fear and national myth making of "evil Europe" or vice versa.

Germany or better to say German world was always central/integral part of Europe (Holy Roman Empire, Habsburgs, Prussia etc...) and most importantly they were completely defeated and occupied in 1945 and new Germany pretty much shaped on American image after that.

There is a reason why Russian propaganda (or average Russian view) call Germany and rest of Europe as American poodle now. I mean our neighbors (Serbia) are the same. When i open comments section of average Serbian news portal its usually goes like this:
"America evil/fault using Ukrainians as cannon fodder, Russia is always right, rest of Europe is under American occupation"

Unfortunately that's it in a nutshell.

 

[verreauxi]

The point I am making is people who chose not to fight for somebody else’s political cause/an ambitious politician are not necessarily traitors or cowards - whatever their nationality.

By the same token, those who fight are not necessarily heroes or brave.

Sure, I agree there. I would also suggest there are "shades" of conscription; I can *more* understand conscription when a country's fate depends on it, whereas needless (or evil) wars like Vietnam (or Russia's invasion of Ukraine) are gonna have more issues and controversy regrading a draft.

 

[Drico]

I'm not sure Ukraine being invaded is Zelenskyys political cause. Its a fight for survival.

Do you think that those wanting others to fight their battle for them, because this is a matter for all Ukraine, should just be given a pass?

I'd be more sympathetic to your view if we considered the Russian situation, because the Russians being sent to their deaths are being forced to do this because Putin thinks its a good idea, no other reason. It's not the same consideration for Ukrainians though.

Citizens of a country do have a duty to one another, in good times and bad.

I don’t share your more unconditional support of Zelenskyy. While I support him in his battle with the evil that is Putinism, I have always thought that there were alternatives to a full-blown war with Russia had he chosen a more conservative line in orientating towards a West which did not take Ukraine under its umbrella when it was clear its leadership intended to align with the West.

Make no mistake: Putin is an imperialist who bullies and tries to dominate all neighbours. But, with that reality clear, I never agreed with those determined to push ahead - and risk splitting Ukraine into the pro-EU west and more pro-Russia east - towards a clear alignment with the West. It’s not that Ukraine did not have the right to do this (it’s a legitimate aspiration), it’s more that it was unlikely to be accomplished without horror for the citizenry thanks to the headbanger next door and the West’s denial of NATO membership.

So, for these reasons, I’d question Zelenskyy’s leadership. And I would most certainly resent being forced to fight for him.

In that sense, I don’t think this war was inevitable because Russia was going to invade regardless of Ukraine’s strategy. It invaded - illegally and criminally - because it didn’t like the direction Zelenskyy was taking. Zelenskyy was entitled to take that direction, but ordinary people are entitled to question would they have preferred a slower and more cautious approach given the evil at their door.

And they might, with good reason, not be too keen to be forced to fight for a strategy they might have opposed.

Anyway, we won’t agree on this. I hope Ukraine wins with proper Western support and eventual NATO membership its eventual reward.

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

I don’t share your more unconditional support of Zelenskyy. While I support him in his battle with the evil that is Putinism, I have always thought that there were alternatives to a full-blown war with Russia had he chosen a more conservative line in orientating towards a West which did not take Ukraine under its umbrella when it was clear its leadership intended to align with the West.

Make no mistake: Putin is an imperialist who bullies and tries to dominate all neighbours. But, with that reality clear, I never agreed with those determined to push ahead - and risk splitting Ukraine into the pro-EU west and more pro-Russia east - towards a clear alignment with the West. It’s not that Ukraine did not have the right to do this (it’s a legitimate aspiration), it’s more that it was unlikely to be accomplished without horror for the citizenry thanks to the headbanger next door and the West’s denial of NATO membership.

So, for these reasons, I’d question Zelenskyy’s leadership. And I would most certainly resent being forced to fight for him.

In that sense, I don’t think this war was inevitable because Russia was going to invade regardless of Ukraine’s strategy. It invaded - illegally and criminally - because it didn’t like the direction Zelenskyy was taking. Zelenskyy was entitled to take that direction, but ordinary people are entitled to question would they have preferred a slower and more cautious approach given the evil at their door.

And they might, with good reason, not be too keen to be forced to fight for a strategy they might have opposed.

Anyway, we won’t agree on this. I hope Ukraine wins with proper Western support and eventual NATO membership its eventual reward.

My support is for the Ukrainian peoples right to freedom and to not be subjugated to Russian imperialst rule, and the clear hell that would bring them. If they had wanted to put themselves under the Kremlins boot then we would not have seen the horrors of the last couple of years.

It is your view that you can live in and enjoy the benefits of a community in the good times but abandon them in times of need, when the very nature of community is needed to survive is what some, including me, have taken umbrage with. Though I do recognise that this is just a conversation on a forum and in reality it might be that you would stand with your neighbours.

Like you, I too hope that Ukraines wins its freedom and is brought into NATO and the EU.

 

[varnish]

I don’t share your more unconditional support of Zelenskyy. While I support him in his battle with the evil that is Putinism, I have always thought that there were alternatives to a full-blown war with Russia had he chosen a more conservative line in orientating towards a West which did not take Ukraine under its umbrella when it was clear its leadership intended to align with the West.

Make no mistake: Putin is an imperialist who bullies and tries to dominate all neighbours. But, with that reality clear, I never agreed with those determined to push ahead - and risk splitting Ukraine into the pro-EU west and more pro-Russia east - towards a clear alignment with the West. It’s not that Ukraine did not have the right to do this (it’s a legitimate aspiration), it’s more that it was unlikely to be accomplished without horror for the citizenry thanks to the headbanger next door and the West’s denial of NATO membership.

So, for these reasons, I’d question Zelenskyy’s leadership. And I would most certainly resent being forced to fight for him.

In that sense, I don’t think this war was inevitable because Russia was going to invade regardless of Ukraine’s strategy. It invaded - illegally and criminally - because it didn’t like the direction Zelenskyy was taking. Zelenskyy was entitled to take that direction, but ordinary people are entitled to question would they have preferred a slower and more cautious approach given the evil at their door.

And they might, with good reason, not be too keen to be forced to fight for a strategy they might have opposed.

Anyway, we won’t agree on this. I hope Ukraine wins with proper Western support and eventual NATO membership its eventual reward.

I mean, he was asking for it wearing a skirt that short…

 

[Drico]

My support is for the Ukrainian peoples right to freedom and to not be subjugated to Russian imperialst rule, and the clear hell that would bring them. If they had wanted to put themselves under the Kremlins boot then we would not have seen the horrors of the last couple of years.

It is your view that you can live in and enjoy the benefits of a community in the good times but abandon them in times of need, when the very nature of community is needed to survive is what some, including me, have taken umbrage with. Though I do recognise that this is just a conversation on a forum and in reality it might be that you would stand with your neighbours.

Like you, I too hope that Ukraines wins its freedom and is brought into NATO and the EU.

It is my view that you need to share the values of the community if it insists that you fight for them. If my leader takes me down a road I think is unwise, and endangers my community in doing so, I am less likely to want to fight for him - even if he covers himself in patriotic garb and talks of glory.

So, it’s really a question of who “abandoned” who. In an ideal world, Ukraine should be able to orientate as it sees fit if its people want that. I think we all agree on that. In the real world, however, that’s only possible if you are stronger than your enemies. If you’re not and you’re dealing with a headbanger next door, you’re making choices and weighing up likely consequences. And my point is not everyone will agree with those choices or believe their consequences are acceptable. And those people can be every bit as patriotic as you - but have a very different risk appetite.

Anyway, thanks for the civil discussion. These are interesting perspectives.

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

“Only a democratic state is capable of ensuring a balance of interests of the individual and society, combining private initiative with national goals,” Vlad Putin 2000

Russian democracy in all its glory. Huzzah!

 

[Drico]

I mean, he was asking for it wearing a skirt that short…

It’s not about whether they should be able to orientate as they see fit/wear a short skirt/wear nothing. Of course they should. It’s whether doing so increases danger from the rapist next door. And if so, are there enough policemen on the street to apprehend the rapist before he does his damage? If there is a known rapist down a dark alley, one might want to avoid that alley unless accompanied by some NATO heavies. Morally, one shouldn’t have to, but reality dictates otherwise.

I wish we lived in an ideal world where none of this could happen. But until we do, we have a duty of care to ourselves. Unless we think the sacrifice is worth it. And some won’t. That doesn’t make them unpatriotic. Just more cautious.

 

[peteblue]

Russian democracy in all its glory. Huzzah!

Windows eh. I read that it’s been suggested he had a heart issue, apparently most of those who fall out of windows in Russia have heart issues for some strange reason…..