peteblue
Welcome back Wayne
My support is for the Ukrainian peoples right to freedom and to not be subjugated to Russian imperialst rule, and the clear hell that would bring them. If they had wanted to put themselves under the Kremlins boot then we would not have seen the horrors of the last couple of years.
It is your view that you can live in and enjoy the benefits of a community in the good times but abandon them in times of need, when the very nature of community is needed to survive is what some, including me, have taken umbrage with. Though I do recognise that this is just a conversation on a forum and in reality it might be that you would stand with your neighbours.
Like you, I too hope that Ukraines wins its freedom and is brought into NATO and the EU.
It is my view that you need to share the values of the community if it insists that you fight for them. If my leader takes me down a road I think is unwise, and endangers my community in doing so, I am less likely to want to fight for him - even if he covers himself in patriotic garb and talks of glory.
So, it’s really a question of who “abandoned” who. In an ideal world, Ukraine should be able to orientate as it sees fit if its people want that. I think we all agree on that. In the real world, however, that’s only possible if you are stronger than your enemies. If you’re not and you’re dealing with a headbanger next door, you’re making choices and weighing up likely consequences. And my point is not everyone will agree with those choices or believe their consequences are acceptable. And those people can be every bit as patriotic as you - but have a very different risk appetite.
Anyway, thanks for the civil discussion. These are interesting perspectives.
Back in the early days of the Brexit debate (I’m not trying to deflect the thread btw) I mentioned one of my concerns with the continued expansion, and indeed speed of expansion of the EU right up to the edges of Russia and I said that this would almost certainly result in armed conflict. I’m not having a pop at the EU but I still think the speed of change especially with Ukraine was rubbing Russia’s nose in it. Now we are all agreed that Russia should have no say in what another country wishes to join, but I think the potential expansion of the EU and of NATO into these sensitive areas should have been done with more care. Russia suffered badly during WW2 and I can understand, if not agree with, their desire for ‘buffer‘ states…….