Current Affairs Ukraine

[Tipp blue]

You call that shaping the battlefied, I call it lunacy

Exactly, but the warmongers in NATO arent in the mood for it

I'd be more inclined to agree with you if this was the first time Russia showed territorial ambitions, but the annexation of parts of other countries is a major part their history, going back well before NATO.. regardless of what the kremlin are saying this is a land grab nothing more..

 

[tsubaki]

Considering you have absolutely no regard for the Ukraine's interests or right to exist, I'll skip the part where I ask you what exactly they could reasonably accept after having their cities bombed to bits and citizens murdered en masse in a war they didn't start.

So what do you think would be an agreement that Putin would accept, and would you expect that he would just stick to the terms of any agreement made, like he's so famous for doing so in the past?

It is going to have to be their decision, but how this war ends is something that they need to be thinking about. We also need to understand that there is victory for Ukraine even without restoring the 1991 borders and getting reparations off Russia.

Back in April 2022 they were talking about peace, and I think real questions need to be asked about why that stopped. The popular theory is that it was because of the discovery of Bucha, but Johnson’s role in encouraging resistance (which is one of the things both sides agree happened) is also something that should be looked at. Given his history of mendacity and association with disasters, we really need to know what he said / what he signed us up to.

It’s not like the parties have refused contact been talking about prisoner swaps and the grain deal, as well as other issues. Peace talks need to resume.

 

[Kev The Rat]

I'd be more inclined to agree with you if this was the first time Russia showed territorial ambitions, but the annexation of parts of other countries is a major part their history, going back well before NATO.. regardless of what the kremlin are saying this is a land grab nothing more..

I dont think the ambition or logic of Russia is that relevant here.

It's a question of whether you can force a nuclear power into retreat, or if that is even desirable.

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

This war has been going on since 2014. The latest invasion is just another phase that Ukraine had prepared for. The only way this ends is Russia withdraw or are defeated.

in other news it is good to see Germany leading calls for an air defense shield over Ukraine.

 

[Lobster Johnson]

I dont think the ambition or logic of Russia is that relevant here.

It's a question of whether you can force a nuclear power into retreat, or if that is even desirable.

Well, Afghanistan managed it in the 80s based on nothing more ideological than "get out of my country"

 

[WA Toffee]

Where you are wrong is that China needs an ally against the US - a buffer even.

That will last as long as the US remains the principle hegemon

I assume you think that hegemony is going to end then.

And regardless of the strength of their relationship I have to repeat no nuclear power is going to have its territory seized from it - not today, not tomorrow.

Notice Chinese media is in far more a frenzy over non nuclear Taiwan than regaining the lost areas to Russia.

I don't think China needs Russia as an ally, and never said it does.

And your continued points about no one daring to claim land from nuclear Russia would hold a bit more weight if China wasn't in border disputes with Nuclear India. Or Nuclear India was not in border disputes with nuclear Pakistan. It does happen whether you try to deny it or not

 

[Kev The Rat]

I don't think China needs Russia as an ally, and never said it does.

And your continued points about no one daring to claim land from nuclear Russia would hold a bit more weight if China wasn't in border disputes with Nuclear India. Or Nuclear India was not in border disputes with nuclear Pakistan. It does happen whether you try to deny it or not

well I disagree on all points so let’s just leave it at that then

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

Well, Afghanistan managed it in the 80s based on nothing more ideological than "get out of my country"

Vietnam too. The important note here being that in both cases the weaker countries were receiving support, but not to the scake Ukraine is getting. This is an absolute disaster for Russia.

 

[Kev The Rat]

Well, Afghanistan managed it in the 80s based on nothing more ideological than "get out of my country"

Afghanistan meant nothing much to Russia geographically or culturally I disagree Ukraine has the same symbolism to them.

Furthermore areas have been formally annexed which means leaving isn’t as easy as just walking away

 

[tsubaki]

This war has been going on since 2014. The latest invasion is just another phase that Ukraine had prepared for. The only way this ends is Russia withdraw or are defeated.

in other news it is good to see Germany leading calls for an air defense shield over Ukraine.

This is the big problem that we have - that we’ve mugged ourselves into an all-or-nothing definition of victory.

Ukraine continuing as an independent state capable of defending itself and free to take part in whatever international organisations it wants based on its circumstances is a victory, just as Finland continuing to exist in 1940 and 1945 was.

 

[Kev The Rat]

Vietnam too. The important note here being that in both cases the weaker countries were receiving support, but not to the scake Ukraine is getting. This is an absolute disaster for Russia.

I believe the only path with continued western support here is escalation which isn’t really the triumph you seem to think it is

 

[Lobster Johnson]

Afghanistan meant nothing much to Russia geographically or culturally I disagree Ukraine has the same symbolism

Then why spend a decade and 20,000 lives invading it? Why build 1500km of infrastructure to supply your invasion that you're NEA about?

This isn't a football team, you don't have to support them whatever they do.

 

[Lobster Johnson]

Vietnam too. The important note here being that in both cases the weaker countries were receiving support, but not to the scake Ukraine is getting. This is an absolute disaster for Russia.

See also Afghanistan and everyone since Alexander the Great.

 

[tsubaki]

Vietnam too. The important note here being that in both cases the weaker countries were receiving support, but not to the scake Ukraine is getting. This is an absolute disaster for Russia.

Just as an aside, North Vietnam got far more assistance off China and the USSR than Ukraine is getting off the West. All of their weapons, including fighter aircraft and then advanced SAM technologies, were sent there in volume for more than a decade. The Chinese sent troops in as well, although this was for infrastructure and support rather than actual fighting.

 

[Lobster Johnson]

Just as an aside, North Vietnam got far more assistance off China and the USSR than Ukraine is getting off the West. All of their weapons, including fighter aircraft and then advanced SAM technologies, were sent there in volume for more than a decade. The Chinese sent troops in as well, although this was for infrastructure and support rather than actual fighting.

Just ask John McCain