Current Affairs Ukraine

[Spadge Vernacular]

Putin and Russia own this.

On the 31st December 2021 Ukrainians across their country went into the New Year filled with hope and joy. No doubt with wishes that the end of the last two years of hardship with Covid were coming to an end.

Eight weeks later Putin turned their country into a living hell because he is a tyrant, no other reason.

He can blame Nazi's, Satanists, NATO, the US, the tooth fairy, whoever he wants but he did it because he wants to destroy the west and its rules based system and be at the head of a global dictatorship led be him and Xi. He has a warped fantasy about reastblishing the Soviet empire and Russian world that would see Europe as his too. He is a monster.

Stats from the UN relating to the fallout of his aggression upon Ukrainian civilians.

Russian Invasion Has Uprooted 14 Million Ukrainians, UN Says

Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has driven some 14 million Ukrainians from their homes in “the fastest, largest displacement witnessed in decades,” the UN refugee chief said on November 2.

www.rferl.org

He has weaponised migrants against the west (Europe) as a tactic of the Syrian war and beyond. His hawks are openly talking about adding more strain to the EU and Europe by pushing more Ukrainians our way and make no mistake this is a tactic to push societies towards nationalistic right wing positions that he can manipulate to serve his ends.

https://www.militairespectator.nl/sites/default/files/teksten/bestanden/Militaire%20Spectator%207-8-2019%20Schoemaker.pdf

Belarus Is Weaponizing Migrants Using Putin’s Playbook. Europe Must Legally Fight Back.

Belarus is using migrants to retaliate against the EU for sanctions. It's also using lawfare: law as a weapon of war. Here's how Europe can fight back and maintain the moral high ground.

www.forbes.com

If you want to live in a democratic, or even semi democratic world then Putin has to be defeated and the framworks he has built over the last 20 years or so dismantled.

 

[thirdmantackle]

My girlfriend is Latvian, though her parents are Russian - they were there when the Soviet Union broke up and stayed.

None of them, obviously, are in favour of the war, or Putin. Her cousin, who's my age (27), and lives in St Petersburg, is one of the approx. 300,000 to now be placed on the reservist list, and he's desperately trying to flee the country.

What upsets her even more, though, is the one-sided coverage here. While she's no believer of Russian propaganda, they aren't the only ones playing the game.

She's at the web summit this week in Lisbon and as part of that they've had a Usyk and the First Lady of Ukraine among their speakers. They've also had the Queen Consort of Jordan, who decried Russia's acts, but also asked for equal priority to be paid to the atrocities in Syria, in Yemen (on both sides) and in Palestine. Of course though, Ukraine takes precedence - white Europeans after all and, for NATO, a key strategic position and a lot of resources.

I've changed my opinion a fair bit from the start of it all. I still despise Putin, a complete maniac, and think he needs to be shuffled from this mortal coil as quickly as possible. But NATO poked the bear and the bear, unfortunately, is a lunatic - one that has been allowed to get away with too much for far too long.

It makes me sick when I see people share victorious Ukrainian videos of soldiers destroying helicopters with their NATO-supplied weapons, and the social media celebration of other people dying.

If they wanted this war to stop, truly wanted it, then the West, NATO and its allies, that div in the White House and the divs in the UK and the EU, would get it done, in some capacity. A ceasefire of some sort, an agreement of some sort. Why hasn't it happened, or looking any closer to happening?

Russia invaded without provocation for the second time in 8 years.
They bear 100% responsibility for the war

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

It makes me sick when I see people share victorious Ukrainian videos of soldiers destroying helicopters with their NATO-supplied weapons, and the social media celebration of other people dying.

What should be making you sick, Toff, are the videos and reports of civilians, women and children being killed in their homes by the Russian troops - that should be what makes you feel sick. The Ukrainian troops are defending theor homes and their families, if NATO weapons can assist them in this noble and very determined nationally supported fight then you need to be asking yourself what would be happening without them.

The rapes, murders, kidaps and genocide are a result of the Kremlin, their troops and supporting Russians wanting to see Ukrainians wiped from the map.

If they wanted this war to stop, truly wanted it, then the West, NATO and its allies, that div in the White House and the divs in the UK and the EU, would get it done, in some capacity. A ceasefire of some sort, an agreement of some sort. Why hasn't it happened, or looking any closer to happening?

If Russia wanted this war to stop, truly wanted it, then its generals, Belarus, seperatists in occupied Ukraine, that div in the Kremilin and the divs in the Iran and the North Korea, would assist in getting it done, in some capacity. A ceasefire of some sort, an agreement of some sort. Why hasn't it happened, or looking any closer to happening - becuase Putin has so far refused and China have refused to call him out forcefully.

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

 

[PeregrineT]

And that won't happen without the rest of the world coming together with an actual plan or 'peace offering' - for a lack of a better term. Because Putin's a lunatic.

The onus is more on NATO, than Ukraine, from 'our side'. And obviously, whatever they offer and hopefully agree on would have to protect Ukraine and its people.

It's a proxy war, we can surely all see that. It's Russia v the West being played out in Ukraine just like it was in Vietnam and Afghanistan and tons of other places.

I dont say this lightly, but you are an absolute fool if you think "Putin's a lunatic" but somehow we can force him into peace. Nonsense. "The onus is more on Nato"

But then again you call a murderous invasion a "proxy war" just like "Vietnam" to help your conscience a bit with what you are okay with, while you avoid the photos and videos of those killed and raped.

 

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Baffles me that people can still buy into the notion that Putin and Russia aren't 100% responsible for this invasion.

Let's get it right, it's not a conflict or military operation or even war where 2 sides want to make gains, it's just a plain dirty invasion of sovereign territory.

Ukraine simply want the resources to defend themselves and their country and reclaim it from invading orcs, I'm in it with them for the long haul even if it means taking a further hit to cost of living. It's a small price to pay when you consider what the Ukrainians are going through and what is at stake.

I only hope Governments in power hold their nerve and public opinion remains staunch. I'll never forgive those who cave in to be honest.

 

[BlueToff]

What should be making you sick, Toff, are the videos and reports of civilians, women and children being killed in their homes by the Russian troops - that should be what makes you feel sick. The Ukrainian troops are defending theor homes and their families, if NATO weapons can assist them in this noble and very determined nationally supported fight then you need to be asking yourself what would be happening without them.

The rapes, murders, kidaps and genocide are a result of the Kremlin, their troops and supporting Russians wanting to see Ukrainians wiped from the map.


If Russia wanted this war to stop, truly wanted it, then its generals, Belarus, seperatists in occupied Ukraine, that div in the Kremilin and the divs in the Iran and the North Korea, would assist in getting it done, in some capacity. A ceasefire of some sort, an agreement of some sort. Why hasn't it happened, or looking any closer to happening - becuase Putin has so far refused and China have refused to call him out forcefully.

It absolutely does make me sick, they're war crimes and they should be punished. I think Putin and his cronies should hang for what they've done.

That being said, this has been going on for 7 months now. Everything you say in your last paragraph, I agree with, but the same also absolutely applies to America, UK, France, Germany - the rest of the EU - etc. It's literally the same thing.

The one place that doesn't have the power to stop this is Ukraine, and I am not suggesting Ukraine give up or surrender or anything like that.

 

[BlueToff]

Russia invaded without provocation for the second time in 8 years.
They bear 100% responsibility for the war

I think you should watch and read a bit more about what NATO did in the last few years if you think there was no provocation, unfortunately. Was it enough to warrant what has happened? Absolutely not, not one bit. So no, I'm not making any excuses or aligning myself with what Putin did. But there's not really an innocent party in this other than the innocent Ukrainian people and what has happened to them. Just like the innocent Syrians, and innocent people of Yemen, and the innocents in South Sudan.

As for what has been happening since 2014, again, read up. It's been a very delicate situation and it seems Putin used it to try and seize the first bits of power again in the region. But it's not necessarily something caused by the Russian government - they did however get involved and back the separatists (like happened a lot in the Cold War).

I am not absolving the Russian government of blame, but it's hardly as black and white as you're suggesting.

Someone - months ago actually - in this thread said: 'what if Russia, China, Iran etc formed an alliance and then got Mexico involved, how would America react?'

At the time, I disagreed with the logic, but it's right. They'd react very strongly, maybe not an invasion like Putin - who I think is a war criminal (like Blair and Bush and the rest, btw), but it wouldn't go down well, would it.

 

[BlueToff]

I dont say this lightly, but you are an absolute fool if you think "Putin's a lunatic" but somehow we can force him into peace. Nonsense. "The onus is more on Nato"

But then again you call a murderous invasion a "proxy war" just like "Vietnam" to help your conscience a bit with what you are okay with, while you avoid the photos and videos of those killed and raped.

What are you on about you absolute tosser?

Why does me saying - 'maybe the powers that be around the world should stop fuelling the war and instead work to stop it before more people die' mean I'm ignoring the atrocities that have gone on? It doesn't, only in the warped mind of someone who is steadfastly set in one way of thinking. And yeah, you are a tosser for even suggesting I'm okay with that, wish I could call you a much stronger name in all honesty.

Yes, the onus is on NATO AND RUSSIA - not Ukraine - to solve this crisis.

 

[BlueToff]

You saw what Russia did with Mariupol and that was really before NATO and other countries had time to start supplying weapons, while the bulk were tied up trying to defend Kiev. What you therefore appear to be saying is that every Ukrainian town and city should face that with no support or the people just stand aside and welcome Russian troops in with zero understanding of what their fates will be after they install a puppet regime or just put a Russian flag on it.

We may be prolonging the war but there is no guarantees the loss of life would be any less if Ukraine was left to fight this alone. If we had have said it's none of our business and turned away I think we would have all have felt complicit in those deaths. If Russian forces are driven out of Ukraine then least those that have perished wouldn't have been for nothing.

Therefore instead of looking at it from the point of view of without NATO help Ukraine would have had to have surrendered giving in to Russian demands, what if we give them all the weapons they need so it gets to the point Russia can no longer hold those territories and they fall back to their lands or if they wanted say a section of the Donbass which they believe is occupied by ethnic Russians then they could stay there and get around a negotiating table to say this is what we want to end it.

absolutely terrible, I'm not saying the west weren't right to offer defence, or supply weapons. But long term, this isn't the answer.

NATO and Russia have to come together. That's the only way out of this.

But all we see is more rhetoric about fighting evil etc, and a bloke who doesn't know what day it is and can't put together a complete sentence leading the way. Great.

 

[BlueToff]

Baffles me that people can still buy into the notion that Putin and Russia aren't 100% responsible for this invasion.

Let's get it right, it's not a conflict or military operation or even war where 2 sides want to make gains, it's just a plain dirty invasion of sovereign territory.

Ukraine simply want the resources to defend themselves and their country and reclaim it from invading orcs, I'm in it with them for the long haul even if it means taking a further hit to cost of living. It's a small price to pay when you consider what the Ukrainians are going through and what is at stake.

I only hope Governments in power hold their nerve and public opinion remains staunch. I'll never forgive those who cave in to be honest.

Why do you say Putin and Russia? The Russian people aren't, Putin is.

But if you cannot see NATO played their part too then I despair mate.

And that is NOT about taking blame, it's about seeing what happened. Putin warned NATO that he'd attack, for months, yet they still increased their presence in the region. Now personally, I think every country should have the right to be in any alliance they wish, but in reality, I know that's not going to happen in such a delicate situation.

This isn't about what Ukraine wanted or did after the invasion took place. But if governments - as you put it - keep 'holding their nerve', millions more die.

If the EU formed a singular military, and Ireland lined up a load of soldiers from across that alliance on the Northern Irish border, how would the UK react? I'm sure we'd fall short of invasion, of course, which is the key difference here and why I think Putin is mad to do what he did, but it wouldn't be a simple political situation , would it?

 

[COYBL25]

I usually reserve this one for @davek

 

[BlueToff]

@Spadge Vernacular

you post a lot from the Ukrainian side and I fully endorse that side of the fight and feel so much sympathy for what has gone on. And the war crimes that have been committed/reported must be punished.

On the flip side, there was celebration - a post may even have been shared on here - when Russian soldiers were burned alive en route to Kyiv by Ukrainian attacks.

We can't have it both ways. War is horrendous, wherever it is, and this one needs to be stopped. Ukraine don't have the power to stop it, but NATO do - they have to get in the room with Putin, so to speak. They have to.

It doesn't seem like they've tried. The reaction at first was sanctions (albeit plenty of nations are still happy to take Russia's oil and gas), and defence of Ukraine and other nations in the region. Sound, good first moves. But seven months on, what's the play now? Because it doesn't seem like there's been any steps towards peace from either side.

 

[BlueToff]

View attachment 189608

I usually reserve this one for @davek

Nah mate, I love you to bits but I'm not having this here.

I want war to stop, and people to stop dying, and somehow that's equated to me endorsing people getting raped. I'm fuming about it.

Didn't say NATO should stop defending Ukraine either, btw. But it's not going to get this war to stop anytime soon by just doing that. So something else needs to happen.

 

[COYBL25]

Nah mate, I love you to bits but I'm not having this here.

I want war to stop, and people to stop dying, and somehow that's equated to me endorsing people getting raped. I'm fuming about it.

Didn't say NATO should stop defending Ukraine either, btw. But it's not going to get this war to stop anytime soon by just doing that. So something else needs to happen.

If NATO was guilty of anything, it was sitting on their hands, as it was obvious that prior to the invasion of Ukraine, what Putin was up to - massing troops all along the border, under the guise of “ manoeuvres “.

That was the point, that NATO and the West, could‘ve stopped all this, but Putin called their bluff.

As many others have said, Putin is following the dictators play book and there can be no concessions what so ever to him.

History has shown time and time again, that only defeat or a coup will stop the likes of Putin.

Giving him any form of concessions, will only embolden him.