Current Affairs Ukraine

[BlueToff]

The onus is on Russia Toff. The rest of the world (or vast majority of it) are backing Ukraine and there won't be a plan until Russia stop, ceasefire and retreat. Then I'm sure some kind of peace offering will happen and it will be up to Ukraine and Russia to agree.

The onus is on both sides though. Yes, back Ukraine, but there has to be an urgency to stop this war and not fuel it.

Putin isn't going to change his stance, Mac. So the order of what you're saying has to be changed around. If not, you're gonna have 300,000 (approx) reservists heading to Ukraine, and probably dying, from Russia over the winter, and you'd guess probably the same amount of Ukrainians.

 

[The binman chronicles]

What I am saying - and you've actually proved my point here - is that while we'll say as the educated West that we see the right side of the story etc, that it's Russia using propaganda, we have to remember that our media outlets, in general, have mainly told one half of the story too.

Mate my wife of many years is Armenian, I have quite a detailed understanding of the politics in that region, her Aunt lives in Crimea and has other family in Moscow. Often the Russian news is on in this household - in fact way more than UK news. However a spade is still a spade, the world let Russia get away with invading Crimea with the hope that would be that but it never is. Only by standing up to them now is a way of changing that mindset.

I would be open to Ukraine to come up with a peace deal that may involve certain parts (Crimea) being handed over to Russia to end this nightmare, but at the same time that was their territory and so is the other regions that have been taken over by Russian forces and they have the right to defend/fight for it.

 

[BlueToff]

And, on the flip side, if you're going to have one of the biggest athletes in his sport at one of the world's biggest tech events, which is what the Web Summit is, talking about his experiences in Ukraine, which is what Usyk did - and it's fine - then how about getting Medvedev or one of the female Russian tennis players (just as they are very prominent at the top of the game) to speak too? Not at the same time, not as a divisive thing, but to emphasise that the people of Russia don't feel this way and to perhaps, even, maybe help connect the outside world to the people in Russia who are able to have that contact and might be able to apply some pressure internally?

Just a thought, like.

 

[peteblue]

The onus is on both sides though. Yes, back Ukraine, but there has to be an urgency to stop this war and not fuel it.

Putin isn't going to change his stance, Mac. So the order of what you're saying has to be changed around. If not, you're gonna have 300,000 (approx) reservists heading to Ukraine, and probably dying, from Russia over the winter, and you'd guess probably the same amount of Ukrainians.

So a maniac kicks down your front door, takes over your living room and kitchen, your neighbours provide you with baseball bats to give him a smack, you push him out of the kitchen but he’s still in the living room. Do you now stop and think well both of us need to sit down and discuss how much of my house he can keep, or do you keep hitting him until he is gone……..

 

[BlueToff]

Mate my wife of many years is Armenian, I have quite a detailed understanding of the politics in that region, her Aunt lives in Crimea and has other family in Moscow. Often the Russian news is on in this household - in fact way more than UK news. However a spade is still a spade, the world let Russia get away with invading Crimea with the hope that would be that but it never is. Only by standing up to them now is a way of changing that mindset.

I would be open to Ukraine to come up with a peace deal that may involve certain parts (Crimea) being handed over to Russia to end this nightmare, but at the same time that was their territory and so is the other regions that have been taken over by Russian forces and they have the right to defend/fight for it.

I absolutely agree, the world for far too long let Putin get away with far too much. And thanks for showing you have experience - I again, agree that a spade is a spade. But please refrain from suggesting I'm a mad man because I don't want people on both sides to keep dying and fighting... and 'the West' to keep it going because that's what we are doing.

I don't think the onus should be on Ukraine, that's the thing. I don't blame the Ukrainians one bit. It is all this bloody proxy fighting between NATO and Russia (Putin). So it's on NATO and Putin to get this agreement done. All I see is more aggravation and all that results in is more death.

 

[maccavennie]

The onus is on both sides though. Yes, back Ukraine, but there has to be an urgency to stop this war and not fuel it.

Putin isn't going to change his stance, Mac. So the order of what you're saying has to be changed around. If not, you're gonna have 300,000 (approx) reservists heading to Ukraine, and probably dying, from Russia over the winter, and you'd guess probably the same amount of Ukrainians.

I won't be sending 300k to die Toff, that'll be Putin who does that. I'm in no position to change the order of what I'm saying around mate, that's Putins job to do it in the right order

Of course there has to be an urgency on both sides to stop the war and guess how that will happen..by Russia stopping, ceasefire and retreating. Its quite simple really.

What your suggesting is letting my next door neighbour taking 20ft of my garden which I own, but asking my neighbour to the right to tell him I don't want him to take 20ft of my garden and him saying well give him 12ft at least to.keep him happy

Or maybe I tell me neighbour to the left to [Poor language removed] off out of my garden, my neighbour to the right agrees with me and shouts over to my neighbour to the left to [Poor language removed] off as well and then they get the point and realise they should maybe not try and steal my garden.

That's obviously in simple terms as I'm not a master strategist or politician but it's a simple way of looking at it.

 

[BlueToff]

So a maniac kicks down your front door, takes over your living room and kitchen, your neighbours provide you with baseball bats to give him a smack, you push him out of the kitchen but he’s still in the living room. Do you now stop and think well both of us need to sit down and discuss how much of my house he can keep, or do you keep hitting him until he is gone……..

I've not said the onus is on Ukraine to be striking the agreement or not have a right to defend itself. This isn't what I'm suggesting or think they should just have rolled over.

However, such is life that yeah, they might have to offer up their porch, or the house will get burned down, and a good chunk of the rest of the street with it, and the onus is on the neighbour who keeps giving the baseball bats to help broker that.

 

[BlueToff]

I won't be sending 300k to die Toff, that'll be Putin who does that. I'm in no position to change the order of what I'm saying around mate, that's Putins job to do it in the right order

Of course there has to be an urgency on both sides to stop the war and guess how that will happen..by Russia stopping, ceasefire and retreating. Its quite simple really.

What your suggesting is letting my next door neighbour taking 20ft of my garden which I own, but asking my neighbour to the right to tell him I don't want him to take 20ft of my garden and him saying well give him 12ft at least to.keep him happy

Or maybe I tell me neighbour to the left to [Poor language removed] off out of my garden, my neighbour to the right agrees with me and shouts over to my neighbour to the left to [Poor language removed] off as well and then they get the point and realise they should maybe not try and steal my garden.

That's obviously in simple terms as I'm not a master strategist or politician but it's a simple way of looking at it.

Yeah and Putin's a lunatic, unlike you or I, and that's the devastating part.

You've gone a bit Pete there with that analogy but the only difference is, your next door neighbour (wrongly) feels that the 20ft front garden was his in the first place. I'm not suggesting, just to be clear, that the onus is on Ukraine, it's on NATO.

Unfortunately, we're dealing with real life - and death - here. Not this simple analogy. But if this carries on like it is all that's left is more ruin in that region and the rest of the world suffering too. So the powers around the world have to do more. It's as simple as that. And I don't think they're doing anywhere near enough.

 

[maccavennie]

Yeah and Putin's a lunatic, unlike you or I, and that's the devastating part.

You've gone a bit Pete there with that analogy but the only difference is, your next door neighbour (wrongly) feels that the 20ft front garden was his in the first place. I'm not suggesting, just to be clear, that the onus is on Ukraine, it's on NATO.

Unfortunately, we're dealing with real life - and death - here. Not this simple analogy. But if this carries on like it is all that's left is more ruin in that region and the rest of the world suffering too. So the powers around the world have to do more. It's as simple as that. And I don't think they're doing anywhere near enough.

Well for the rest of the world to do enough mate, it would be nice if Russia started making some effort as well to help with those peace talks.

As a husband and father with 2 boss kids, I'm dealing in real life too Toff, I watch and read and listen daily to everything that's going on and try to take it all in and the impacts that has on the world, on us here, on the deaths over there.

 

[The binman chronicles]

and 'the West' to keep it going because that's what we are doing.

You saw what Russia did with Mariupol and that was really before NATO and other countries had time to start supplying weapons, while the bulk were tied up trying to defend Kiev. What you therefore appear to be saying is that every Ukrainian town and city should face that with no support or the people just stand aside and welcome Russian troops in with zero understanding of what their fates will be after they install a puppet regime or just put a Russian flag on it.

We may be prolonging the war but there is no guarantees the loss of life would be any less if Ukraine was left to fight this alone. If we had have said it's none of our business and turned away I think we would have all have felt complicit in those deaths. If Russian forces are driven out of Ukraine then least those that have perished wouldn't have been for nothing.

Therefore instead of looking at it from the point of view of without NATO help Ukraine would have had to have surrendered giving in to Russian demands, what if we give them all the weapons they need so it gets to the point Russia can no longer hold those territories and they fall back to their lands or if they wanted say a section of the Donbass which they believe is occupied by ethnic Russians then they could stay there and get around a negotiating table to say this is what we want to end it.

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

Next round of Russian interference in western politics heading to the US!

 

[WA Toffee]

You saw what Russia did with Mariupol and that was really before NATO and other countries had time to start supplying weapons, while the bulk were tied up trying to defend Kiev. What you therefore appear to be saying is that every Ukrainian town and city should face that with no support or the people just stand aside and welcome Russian troops in with zero understanding of what their fates will be after they install a puppet regime or just put a Russian flag on it.

We may be prolonging the war but there is no guarantees the loss of life would be any less if Ukraine was left to fight this alone. If we had have said it's none of our business and turned away I think we would have all have felt complicit in those deaths. If Russian forces are driven out of Ukraine then least those that have perished wouldn't have been for nothing.

Therefore instead of looking at it from the point of view of without NATO help Ukraine would have had to have surrendered giving in to Russian demands, what if we give them all the weapons they need so it gets to the point Russia can no longer hold those territories and they fall back to their lands or if they wanted say a section of the Donbass which they believe is occupied by ethnic Russians then they could stay there and get around a negotiating table to say this is what we want to end it.

To be fair, I think what he is ultimately suggesting is that Putin is a d1ck and won't start a peace process, so the west should take the lead. Which is a reasonable position I think.

 

[The binman chronicles]

To be fair, I think what he is ultimately suggesting is that Putin is a d1ck and won't start a peace process, so the west should take the lead. Which is a reasonable position I think.

But what can the west do though? Turkey tried to broker a deal and failed, if Ukraine don't want to give up territory and Russia don't want to leave without then there is an impasse. Until one of the parties comes to the conclusion that isn't the case, which is obviously what Russia are trying by hitting infrastructure that will make it very hard for the population to get through winter. And on the other side if Kherson falls and Ukraine are suddenly a few miles from Crimea again then that might make someone reconsider a pull out and ceasefire.

I would hope people like Macron who has had Putin's ear is consistently trying to do something and that the back channels have been talking to each other. You can lead a horse to water...kind of stuff.

 

[Noisy noise annoys]

You saw what Russia did with Mariupol and that was really before NATO and other countries had time to start supplying weapons, while the bulk were tied up trying to defend Kiev. What you therefore appear to be saying is that every Ukrainian town and city should face that with no support or the people just stand aside and welcome Russian troops in with zero understanding of what their fates will be after they install a puppet regime or just put a Russian flag on it.

We may be prolonging the war but there is no guarantees the loss of life would be any less if Ukraine was left to fight this alone. If we had have said it's none of our business and turned away I think we would have all have felt complicit in those deaths. If Russian forces are driven out of Ukraine then least those that have perished wouldn't have been for nothing.

Therefore instead of looking at it from the point of view of without NATO help Ukraine would have had to have surrendered giving in to Russian demands, what if we give them all the weapons they need so it gets to the point Russia can no longer hold those territories and they fall back to their lands or if they wanted say a section of the Donbass which they believe is occupied by ethnic Russians then they could stay there and get around a negotiating table to say this is what we want to end it.

Excellent post

 

[Noisy noise annoys]

But what can the west do though? Turkey tried to broker a deal and failed, if Ukraine don't want to give up territory and Russia don't want to leave without then there is an impasse. Until one of the parties comes to the conclusion that isn't the case, which is obviously what Russia are trying by hitting infrastructure that will make it very hard for the population to get through winter. And on the other side if Kherson falls and Ukraine are suddenly a few miles from Crimea again then that might make someone reconsider a pull out and ceasefire.

I would hope people like Macron who has had Putin's ear is consistently trying to do something and that the back channels have been talking to each other. You can lead a horse to water...kind of stuff.

And again
There’s this myth that this has all gone sour cos of the west’s involvement, it’s nonsense. As you said, had the west not got involved vlad would have butchered Ukrainian forces and civilians, deposed the leadership and installed its own political bodies. Then what? Like WW2, the west got involved to repel fascist invasion and, when the fascists are ready to talk (real talk) then we can sit down and do so.