Current Affairs Ukraine

[Mutzo Nutzo]

Nah mate, I love you to bits but I'm not having this here.

I want war to stop, and people to stop dying, and somehow that's equated to me endorsing people getting raped. I'm fuming about it.

Didn't say NATO should stop defending Ukraine either, btw. But it's not going to get this war to stop anytime soon by just doing that. So something else needs to happen.

Ukraine will enter into negotiations with Russia when it’s good and ready and not before.

If you think NATO is calling the shots here then you need to stop listening to the Russian propaganda. NATO as an organisation is providing support for Ukraine - the majority of which is actually provided by individual countries of their own choice and not under NATO instruction.

I agree with you on one point and that is NATO’s actions did provide a trigger for Russias invasion however it was merely one of many trigger points. Russia is an imperialistic colonial monster who believes it had the right to do whatever it feels is right for its own misguided and paranoid view of the world.

Ukraine, like Georgia and Syria do not deserve to be the victims of Russian aggression and colonial expansion, so in short Russia needs to get the f out of Ukraine and let them exist as a rightful independent nation.

Western nations will continue to support Ukraine as long as Ukraine needs them to.

 

[BlueToff]

If NATO was guilty of anything, it was sitting on their hands, as it was obvious that prior to the invasion of Ukraine, what Putin was up to - massing troops all along the border, under the guise of “ manoeuvres “.

That was the point, that NATO and the West, could‘ve stopped all this, but Putin called their bluff.

As many others have said, Putin is following the dictators play book and there can be no concessions what so ever to him.

History has shown time and time again, that only defeat or a coup will stop the likes of Putin.

Giving him any form of concessions, will only embolden him.

NATO could also have stopped this by heeding warnings that massing troops in other nations on Russia's border - Latvia included - and spreading further east into Europe could cause issues. Again, I'm not suggesting that justifies Putin's actions mate, not one bit. I hold him fully responsible in that sense. But is he fully responsible for the 'why' (i.e. have both sides acted recklessly over the past decade) - unfortunately, I can't in good conscience think he is.

Regardless of that, I just don't see Ukraine having the negotiating power here. NATO are the ones that do - they can rival Russia's nuclear armoury, they offer a bigger combined force. Of course, nobody wants it to come to all-out war or nuclear war and I'm sure it won't, but NATO and Russia IMO have to come to the table together to get this stopped. It's not about concessions, it's about saving lives.

 

[Cool_Blue]

Even if a ceasefire and some kind of agreement happened tomorrow, what about Crimea, will that be left as is? i.e. in Russian hands?

 

[BlueToff]

Ukraine will enter into negotiations with Russia when it’s good and ready and not before.

If you think NATO is calling the shots here then you need to stop listening to the Russian propaganda. NATO as an organisation is providing support for Ukraine - the majority of which is actually provided by individual countries of their own choice and not under NATO instruction.

I agree with you on one point and that is NATO’s actions did provide a trigger for Russias invasion however it was merely one of many trigger points. Russia is an imperialistic colonial monster who believes it had the right to do whatever it feels is right for its own misguided and paranoid view of the world.

Ukraine, like Georgia and Syria do not deserve to be the victims of Russian aggression and colonial expansion, so in short Russia needs to get the f out of Ukraine and let them exist as a rightful independent nation.

Western nations will continue to support Ukraine as long as Ukraine needs them to.

Let me be clear - I have not read or watched or listened to one bit of 'Russian propaganda'. So why you would suggest that, without knowing it, is beyond me. I couldn't tell you anything about what Russia have said, other than what has been reported by western media organisations.

All I see is what we see, from the West. All I suggested, which I do know through other people, is that Russia aren't the only ones who play the propaganda game.

I fully agree with your third point and want to stress, as I have done in other posts, I do not believe it is justification for what Putin did. I just won't have that people can't see all these actions lined up and in my mind NATO have to lead the negotations, not Ukraine. I don't put the onus on Ukraine.

So Western nations and NATO supporting Ukraine is one thing mate, but surely the time is coming where support is actually getting this war stopped peacefully.

 

[BlueToff]

Even if a ceasefire and some kind of agreement happened tomorrow, what about Crimea, will that be left as is? i.e. in Russian hands?

Well, it's been that way for 8 years. And I believe Crimea has always been an area where the people there have felt Russian. Of course, it's difficult to know for sure what is propaganda and what isn't, but I'm going off western reporting here, not Russian (which I'll stress again, I don't have access to or watch at all).

 

[COYBL25]

NATO could also have stopped this by heeding warnings that massing troops in other nations on Russia's border - Latvia included - and spreading further east into Europe could cause issues. Again, I'm not suggesting that justifies Putin's actions mate, not one bit. I hold him fully responsible in that sense. But is he fully responsible for the 'why' (i.e. have both sides acted recklessly over the past decade) - unfortunately, I can't in good conscience think he is.

Regardless of that, I just don't see Ukraine having the negotiating power here. NATO are the ones that do - they can rival Russia's nuclear armoury, they offer a bigger combined force. Of course, nobody wants it to come to all-out war or nuclear war and I'm sure it won't, but NATO and Russia IMO have to come to the table together to get this stopped. It's not about concessions, it's about saving lives.

He’ll never back down, as it’s about “ National Pride and Face “ with him.

Plus, he told the Russian people, that Ukraine would become part of Russia and any concessions would be seen as defeat.

You can’t negotiate with a sociopath.

 

[Mutzo Nutzo]

NATO could also have stopped this by heeding warnings that massing troops in other nations on Russia's border - Latvia included - and spreading further east into Europe could cause issues. Again, I'm not suggesting that justifies Putin's actions mate, not one bit. I hold him fully responsible in that sense. But is he fully responsible for the 'why' (i.e. have both sides acted recklessly over the past decade) - unfortunately, I can't in good conscience think he is.

Regardless of that, I just don't see Ukraine having the negotiating power here. NATO are the ones that do - they can rival Russia's nuclear armoury, they offer a bigger combined force. Of course, nobody wants it to come to all-out war or nuclear war and I'm sure it won't, but NATO and Russia IMO have to come to the table together to get this stopped. It's not about concessions, it's about saving lives.

NATO is a defensive organisation by nature. Russia has this weird, paranoid aggressive view of the world and in Russias twisted logic it views other nationalistic entities as sharing the same perceptions as itself.

It thinks that everyone is out to get them and so they adopt the mantra of “best form of defence is attack”.

In reality - no one gives a flying one about them or their impotent dwarf of a leader. People just want to crack on with their lives. Beer, footy, families, work, holidays etc that’s what it’s all about.

Russia is desperate to be seen as strong, fearless , mighty.

In reality Russia and its people are a basket case. Well they picked the wrong fight this time and within the next 12 months they will implode in their current format and will not be in a position to bully other nations again for a very long time.

 

[Mutzo Nutzo]

Let me be clear - I have not read or watched or listened to one bit of 'Russian propaganda'. So why you would suggest that, without knowing it, is beyond me. I couldn't tell you anything about what Russia have said, other than what has been reported by western media organisations.

All I see is what we see, from the West. All I suggested, which I do know through other people, is that Russia aren't the only ones who play the propaganda game.

I fully agree with your third point and want to stress, as I have done in other posts, I do not believe it is justification for what Putin did. I just won't have that people can't see all these actions lined up and in my mind NATO have to lead the negotations, not Ukraine. I don't put the onus on Ukraine.

So Western nations and NATO supporting Ukraine is one thing mate, but surely the time is coming where support is actually getting this war stopped peacefully.

Like I said Ukraine will enter negotiations with Russia when it is ready and not before.

 

[BlueToff]

He’ll never back down, as it’s about “ National Pride and Face “ with him.

Plus, he told the Russian people, that Ukraine would become part of Russia and any concessions would be seen as defeat.

You can’t negotiate with a sociopath.

Then what's it about for NATO mate?

We're the bad guys too. We sell arms to the Saudis to wage war in Yemen. We've done nothing about Syria other than make it worse. We created even more chaos in Iraq.

Ultimately, concessions are going to be needed but if the concession of Crimea and the Donbass - areas with populations that, whether we like it or not, do seem to have at least a good chunk of the populations who think of themselves as Russian (not counting Putin's sham referendums from September) - then perhaps that's what will be needed.

But in my mind NATO must take the lead from the Ukrainian side, as a way of supporting Ukraine.

 

[Mutzo Nutzo]

Then what's it about for NATO mate?

We're the bad guys too. We sell arms to the Saudis to wage war in Yemen. We've done nothing about Syria other than make it worse. We created even more chaos in Iraq.

Ultimately, concessions are going to be needed but if the concession of Crimea and the Donbass - areas with populations that, whether we like it or not, do seem to have at least a good chunk of the populations who think of themselves as Russian (not counting Putin's sham referendums from September) - then perhaps that's what will be needed.

But in my mind NATO must take the lead from the Ukrainian side, as a way of supporting Ukraine.

Go on explain to me NATO’s involvement in Iraq

 

[BlueToff]

NATO is a defensive organisation by nature. Russia has this weird, paranoid aggressive view of the world and in Russias twisted logic it views other nationalistic entities as sharing the same perceptions as itself.

It thinks that everyone is out to get them and so they adopt the mantra of “best form of defence is attack”.

In reality - no one gives a flying one about them or their impotent dwarf of a leader. People just want to crack on with their lives. Beer, footy, families, work, holidays etc that’s what it’s all about.

Russia is desperate to be seen as strong, fearless , mighty.

In reality Russia and its people are a basket case. Well they picked the wrong fight this time and within the next 12 months they will implode in their current format and will not be in a position to bully other nations again for a very long time.

Possibly because of the trials and tribulations - largely self-caused by communism and the extremists of socialism, of course - that their people and the people of the former Soviet nations went through. There's also a stoicism to all of those eastern European nations (as we see with Ukraine), but as well as that, with the current Russia we know the media is state-controlled, and it's so vast that it's hard to connect to the outside world. FGS, where my girlfriend's dad is from in Russia is as far away from Moscow as Liverpool is.

It's not that Russia is desperate to be seen as those things, you're making such a sweeping generalisation there mate. I'm sorry but it borders on xenophobic (and I know you're not being but it's so vast, there's so many people). They've got a dictator who has maintained power and has been able to get away with far too much - because the West have let him, while simultaneously provocating in certain ways, which at the set up of NATO btw I believe it was even agreed that they wouldn't push towards Russia past Poland? I could be wrong but I'm sure that's what I've read.

They've only picked the wrong fight because it's white Europeans that they've gone at. If they'd invaded another Asian country again, nobody would have cared - and we're all guilty of that.

 

[BlueToff]

Go on explain to me NATO’s involvement in Iraq

'We' as in the US, UK and the invading forces... wasn't referring to NATO specifically. But it's NATO countries who were involved. Bush and Blair should be lined up with Putin for what they did, in my mind. Chuck in Campbell too, the massive prat, while we're at it.

 

[wm02]

Oh great. We’re back on the “What about Iraq?” train.

Unbelievably tedious

 

[Mutzo Nutzo]

'We' as in the US, UK and the invading forces... wasn't referring to NATO specifically. But it's NATO countries who were involved. Bush and Blair should be lined up with Putin for what they did, in my mind. Chuck in Campbell too, the massive prat, while we're at it.

You implied NATO involvement and then followed up with another reference to NATO countries.

Kazakhstan, El Salvador, Japan to name but a few of many nations contributed forces to the multi national force in the Iraq war. NATO had absolutely NO involvement in the Iraq war.

Now let’s move on from that shall we?

 

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Why do you say Putin and Russia? The Russian people aren't, Putin is.

But if you cannot see NATO played their part too then I despair mate.

And that is NOT about taking blame, it's about seeing what happened. Putin warned NATO that he'd attack, for months, yet they still increased their presence in the region. Now personally, I think every country should have the right to be in any alliance they wish, but in reality, I know that's not going to happen in such a delicate situation.

This isn't about what Ukraine wanted or did after the invasion took place. But if governments - as you put it - keep 'holding their nerve', millions more die.

If the EU formed a singular military, and Ireland lined up a load of soldiers from across that alliance on the Northern Irish border, how would the UK react? I'm sure we'd fall short of invasion, of course, which is the key difference here and why I think Putin is mad to do what he did, but it wouldn't be a simple political situation , would it?

I say Putin and Russia as it appears a significant proportion of the population are in favour of the genocide of their Ukranian neighbours or at the very least the acquisition of their sovereign soil.

How much their view is formed by proganda and fear is debatable and there are signs of encouraging rebellion against the state enforced stance however until the Russian people (and there are millions of good people within this) rise up and say enough is enough they will be culpable by association and silence in the murder of millions.