Current Affairs Ukraine

[PeregrineT]

What are you on about you absolute tosser?

Why does me saying - 'maybe the powers that be around the world should stop fuelling the war and instead work to stop it before more people die' mean I'm ignoring the atrocities that have gone on? It doesn't, only in the warped mind of someone who is steadfastly set in one way of thinking. And yeah, you are a tosser for even suggesting I'm okay with that, wish I could call you a much stronger name in all honesty.

Cute. You can give all the faux outrage and expected name calling instead of arguing your point, as you want and pretend you didnt say what you did.... but like an absolute utter fool you said A. Peace can be accomplished by asking Russia for it. B. Its a proxy war akin to Vietnam.

Lets examine. A. The idea you proposed has been so thoroughly trashed here many times, by almost all political scientists, and anyone with reason at this point, that peace with Russia is possible without giving Russia Ukraine. Putin is unwilling to have peace. Unless you give him everything he wants. Hes not reasonable. This murderous invasions has been going on for 7 months because of that. It will continue to go on because of that. No amount of Nato, Ukraine, or anyone else proposing peace will ever be possible until Putin and Russia are willing to do so. Only the most naïve and gullible people still believe Putins lies on that.

Lets examine B. Since I have to educate you on history, the Vietnam war was a proxy war largely between United States and Communists such as Russia and China. It was a proxy war because it involved two sides fighting a war in a country that was not their own, supporting two opposing groups in a civil war. They also had actual soldiers from both sides on the ground. Obviously this bears little similarity to that, where anyone would find it laughable to compare the two. Russia has invaded a sovereign country. That country has fought back, and has asked its allies for help to prevent its people from being murdered and raped. There are no militaries but Russia and Ukraine on the ground. It is not a 3rd party nation having a civil war. Nato, when it had full opportunity to over previous years such as 2014 had no involvement or support or provocation. It wasnt until a sovereign nation invaded another sovereign nation yet again that they provided support.

Now if you dont want to lift a finger to come to the assistance of innocent people being murdered by a blood-thirsty sovereign nation, when the destitute call for help, so be it. But dont expect anyone to think much of you, or your attempt to twist through lies the true narrative. If you want to make a well reasoned argument about influences, factors, possibilities that go against the popular belief thats fine. But outright lying and saying this is a proxy war like Vietnam and that Russia would be happy with peace but its not being allowed by Nato you can rightly and truly just go toss yourself.

 

[BlueToff]

You implied NATO involvement and then followed up with another reference to NATO countries.

Kazakhstan, El Salvador, Japan to name but a few of many nations contributed forces to the multi national force in the Iraq war. NATO had absolutely NO involvement in the Iraq war.

Now let’s move on from that shall we?

Apologies, the West has done bad things too - good enough for you?

 

[BlueToff]

Cute. You can give all the faux outrage and expected name calling instead of arguing your point, as you want and pretend you didnt say what you did.... but like an absolute utter fool you said A. Peace can be accomplished by asking Russia for it. B. Its a proxy war akin to Vietnam.

Lets examine. A. The idea you proposed has been so thoroughly trashed here many times, by almost all political scientists, and anyone with reason at this point, that peace with Russia is possible without giving Russia Ukraine. Putin is unwilling to have peace. Unless you give him everything he wants. Hes not reasonable. This murderous invasions has been going on for 7 months because of that. It will continue to go on because of that. No amount of Nato, Ukraine, or anyone else proposing peace will ever be possible until Putin and Russia are willing to do so. Only the most naïve and gullible people still believe Putins lies on that.

Lets examine B. Since I have to educate you on history, the Vietnam war was a proxy war largely between United States and Communists such as Russia and China. It was a proxy war because it involved two sides fighting a war in a country that was not their own, supporting two opposing groups in a civil war. They also had actual soldiers from both sides on the ground. Obviously this bears little similarity to that, where anyone would find it laughable to compare the two. Russia has invaded a sovereign country. That country has fought back, and has asked its allies for help to prevent its people from being murdered and raped. There are no militaries but Russia and Ukraine on the ground. It is not a 3rd party nation having a civil war. Nato, when it had full opportunity to over previous years such as 2014 had no involvement or support or provocation. It wasnt until a sovereign nation invaded another sovereign nation yet again that they provided support.

Now if you dont want to lift a finger to come to the assistance of innocent people being murdered by a blood-thirsty sovereign nation, when the destitute call for help, so be it. But dont expect anyone to think much of you, or your attempt to twist through lies the true narrative. If you want to make a well reasoned argument about influences, factors, possibilities that go against the popular belief thats fine. But outright lying and saying this is a proxy war like Vietnam and that Russia would be happy with peace but its not being allowed by Nato you can rightly and truly just go toss yourself.

Let's see about arguing my point - which you got completely the wrong end of the stick with because you decided you wanted to say I was okay with war crimes, for some reason... Strange behaviour, and you've also assumed I defended Russia, which I didn't.

I absolutely do want to 'lift a finger' to assist those innocent people, and NATO, the West have done. However, is that leading to the end of the war? It doesn't seem to be. It doesn't seem to be getting anywhere. So there has to be another answer to try and get Russia and Ukraine to peace? NATO, I think, could act as the brokers, while of course I do not blame them for defending Ukraine in how they can without leading to a WWIII. But it'll only go so far. Drip-feeding them weapons isn't going to work forever.

So again, you've totally misunderstood my point, because you've just jumped to a conclusion that I'm coming down on the side of Russia.

So yeah, learn to read, please. Instead of being a smart arse and thinking I'd suddenly started defending Putin.

PS: Thank you for your defintion of a proxy war. I do think tensions between NATO and Russia have been a factor that led to this, but what NATO did or did not do is not justification for Putin's actions. In that sense, I think the battlefield of Ukraine is being used for something bigger, but of course, that doesn't mean Ukraine have had no say or right to defend themselves.

 

[BlueToff]

I say Putin and Russia as it appears a significant proportion of the population are in favour of the genocide of their Ukranian neighbours or at the very least the acquisition of their sovereign soil.

How much their view is formed by proganda and fear is debatable and there are signs of encouraging rebellion against the state enforced stance however until the Russian people (and there are millions of good people within this) rise up and say enough is enough they will be culpable by association and silence in the murder of millions.

So as someone who knows some Russian people and get an insight into how they are living, they absolutely 100% do not.

Especially the younger generations.

There's been 100,000s of people trying to leave Russia, for one reason or the other.

You're clearly a smart person, so for you to say what I've bolded isn't on. It's the equivalent of saying all of the UK were behind us going to war in Iraq.

Why aren't we all rising up to pressure the western nations into brokering peace talks too? By your logic, we're all culpable here.

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

It absolutely does make me sick, they're war crimes and they should be punished. I think Putin and his cronies should hang for what they've done.

That being said, this has been going on for 7 months now. Everything you say in your last paragraph, I agree with, but the same also absolutely applies to America, UK, France, Germany - the rest of the EU - etc. It's literally the same thing.

The one place that doesn't have the power to stop this is Ukraine, and I am not suggesting Ukraine give up or surrender or anything like that.

The west are going around Ukraine raping and killing?

 

[BlueToff]

Oh great. We’re back on the “What about Iraq?” train.

Unbelievably tedious

Sorry, was just using an example of something in my lifetime that resulted in millions dying for no reason other than leaders lying - and getting away with it.

Sorry that it's so unbelievably tedious.

 

[BlueToff]

The west are going around Ukraine raping and killing?

How in the world have you taken that from what I was replying to?

You said in that paragraph that it was on China, Iran etc to get Russia to the table. Well the same applies for the western nations too, they all have to come to the table, don't they.

 

[wm02]

Sorry, was just using an example of something in my lifetime that resulted in millions dying for no reason other than leaders lying - and getting away with it.

Sorry that it's so unbelievably tedious.

All good. I think you are a more recent contributor in this thread. It’s just a point that has been brought up ad nauseam.

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

@Spadge Vernacular

you post a lot from the Ukrainian side and I fully endorse that side of the fight and feel so much sympathy for what has gone on. And the war crimes that have been committed/reported must be punished.

On the flip side, there was celebration - a post may even have been shared on here - when Russian soldiers were burned alive en route to Kyiv by Ukrainian attacks.

We can't have it both ways. War is horrendous, wherever it is, and this one needs to be stopped. Ukraine don't have the power to stop it, but NATO do - they have to get in the room with Putin, so to speak. They have to.

It doesn't seem like they've tried. The reaction at first was sanctions (albeit plenty of nations are still happy to take Russia's oil and gas), and defence of Ukraine and other nations in the region. Sound, good first moves. But seven months on, what's the play now? Because it doesn't seem like there's been any steps towards peace from either side.

If Russia had not invaded and were inside Ukraine, non of this would be happening, that is the fact of the matter.

If NATO were not helping Ukraine would most likely not exist now, it'd be part of Putin's Russia.

 

[COYBL25]

If Russia had not invaded and were inside Ukraine, non of this would be happening, that is the fact of the matter.

If NATO were not helping Ukraine would most likely not exist now, it'd be part of Putin's Russia.

In a nutshell.

 

[Diogenes the Cynic]

So as someone who knows some Russian people and get an insight into how they are living, they absolutely 100% do not.

Especially the younger generations.

There's been 100,000s of people trying to leave Russia, for one reason or the other.

You're clearly a smart person, so for you to say what I've bolded isn't on. It's the equivalent of saying all of the UK were behind us going to war in Iraq.

Why aren't we all rising up to pressure the western nations into brokering peace talks too? By your logic, we're all culpable here.

It's estimated over a million people took to the streets in 2003 in protest against the Iraq war in the UK and our population compared to Russia is miniscule though.

I accept there our many good people in Russia, I mentioned it in my post and have met many myself. However it is unfortunately and tragically part of the job of the population to make make their leader shape their country's policy. Tragically because history shows us that Russian leaders have little or no respect for the lives of their populace in the cause of the Russian empire. Not unlike a lot of other leaders in a lot of countries I admit.

 

[BlueToff]

All good. I think you are a more recent contributor in this thread. It’s just a point that has been brought up ad nauseam.

I've been away from it for ages. Back in March, I wanted Putin to be tried as a war criminal and hung (hope that still happens) and was hugely against 'Russia'.

I've realised that in war there's a lot of blurred lines though and I just think the longer that it's going on, the more and more concerned I get that the approach the West is taking is ultimately wrong, now. Yes, defend Ukraine as much as we can, but doing what they're currently doing is only extending the bloodshed. I think they have to get Putin to the table. Ukraine, even with NATO's help, can only do what it's doing in fending off Russia, but from recent articles I've read it looks like both sides are preparing to dig in over the winter for trench warfare (or trench-like) - in bloody 2022. So there has to be another way. NATO can't go to war with Russia, more than it is atm anyway, but it does have the might to match what Putin has - and that's a strong bargaining chip to at least negotiate.

 

[BlueToff]

If Russia had not invaded and were inside Ukraine, non of this would be happening, that is the fact of the matter.

If NATO were not helping Ukraine would most likely not exist now, it'd be part of Putin's Russia.

And there's factors that led to Russia's invasion of Ukraine that were also of NATO's doing - so the responsibility is there.

I'm using NATO as the blanket term but really it's just about the West coming together and getting this bloodshed to end. All I see atm is a constant supply of weapons that's keeping the war going, and no attempt at actually bringing it to a close. That's not on Ukraine, it's on the more powerful nations and Russia to come together to get something brokered.

 

[BlueToff]

It's estimated over a million people took to the streets in 2003 in protest against the Iraq war in the UK and our population compared to Russia is miniscule though.

I accept there our many good people in Russia, I mentioned it in my post and have met many myself. However it is unfortunately and tragically part of the job of the population to make make their leader shape their country's policy. Tragically because history shows us that Russian leaders have little or no respect for the lives of their populace in the cause of the Russian empire. Not unlike a lot of other leaders in a lot of countries I admit.

Mate in March there were literally riots in St Petersburg and Moscow. Unfortunately, we don't get to see behind the curtain much more in Russia, but we know there has been further protests, and because it's Russia, those people are likely digging holes in Siberia right now.

 

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Mate in March there were literally riots in St Petersburg and Moscow. Unfortunately, we don't get to see behind the curtain much more in Russia, but we know there has been further protests, and because it's Russia, those people are likely digging holes in Siberia right now.

And I weep for them and all political prisoners to be honest, theirs is a path of bravery and truth that we all hope we would have the courage to tread but we pray never have to find out.

My point still stands though, much more of this is needed on masse to elicit if not change of leader then at least change of policy.

The only thing NATO could do is to reduce the amount of support they provide and put Ukraine at the mercy of Russia unfortunately. As far as I'm concerned it remains a simplistic matter, Russia invaded and Russia need to get out.

There is no threat to Russia's borders, there never was. They could literally remove all border posts and no country would attempt any kind of land grab (in the West at least).