Current Affairs Ukraine

[tsubaki]

He also funneled/helped funnel Russian gas to Eastern Europe, so he is losing money from this war.

He is not a charitable person, and neither is Putin.

nor is any leader on this side of the fence though

For all his many faults he at least seems to be standing up for Turkey's interests in this case - can you imagine how much worse their economy would be (and it is already bad) if he joined in with the NATO / EU sanctions? They'd be ruined and he would probably be overthrown. I'd even say he was probably the NATO leader who is acting most sensibly on this crisis.

 

[davids]

Yeah the whole article is, however, how great Erdogan is and how great Turkey are doing in this argument.

Putin and Erdogan are two faces of the same coin; their cronies are the same; they say the same crap.

Hopefully we won't reach a war for this to be made obvious.

So there was no agreement it's all a lie? Just like the grain deal.

 

[PhilM]

No. In the absence of a rail link the fuel has to be trucked to the tanks.

That’s over 400km across territory contested by Uke drones and long range arty.

Plus the amount of trucks that would be needed to daily supply an Armd brigade is utterly huge - they don’t have the resources

Those trucks need to be fuelled to carry the fuel too. Logistics, logistics, logistics.

 

[davids]

nor is any leader on this side of the fence though

For all his many faults he at least seems to be standing up for Turkey's interests in this case - can you imagine how much worse their economy would be (and it is already bad) if he joined in with the NATO / EU sanctions? They'd be ruined and he would probably be overthrown. I'd even say he was probably the NATO leader who is acting most sensibly on this crisis.

He probably remembers it was the US siting nuclear missiles on the Russian border in Turkey that kicked off the Cuban crisis.

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

You do keep me laughing in what is increasingly looking like the build up to nuclear Armageddon.

You are the rare breed of Irishman that embraces the English occupying Northern Ireland. Fair play.

 

[DualityNSNO]

nor is any leader on this side of the fence though

For all his many faults he at least seems to be standing up for Turkey's interests in this case - can you imagine how much worse their economy would be (and it is already bad) if he joined in with the NATO / EU sanctions? They'd be ruined and he would probably be overthrown. I'd even say he was probably the NATO leader who is acting most sensibly on this crisis.

Long arguments on why he has them, to be honest, as he's... usually problematic, let's say, with purges, unrest, dubious internal affairs decisions, corruption (I know I'm throwing stones in glass house regarding the last few things there lol with our elections and all the current things happening), so I would not trust him and many others don't either, which is why he's not listened to quite a lot. In the same sense that you won't listen to a raving madman about how you should fix problems with raving madmen kind of deal lol

He is an 'iron fist' type of leader and the problems aren't *despite* him, is my point, but more likely because of him.

Also an actively warring country.

Also an actively warring/anti-everyone leader... much like his Russian counterpart.

So there was no agreement it's all a lie? Just like the grain deal.

Unlikely, honestly, is my personal opinion.

Also Turkey is the biggest export of the grain/corn deal they brokered. So humanitarian of them - to buy cheap commodities in a deal which they brokered, no doubt, favourably to themselves.

 

[tsubaki]

Yeah, I'm using a very crude example for obvious reasons, it's clear why it's not the same, but it should also be clear why Ukraine wouldn't want to just roll over and give up and give all of their territory to an oppressive regime (because this will happen if they do - it won't be "the current territories", it will be "all territories").

Paywalled in FA, and it wasn't even that article. If you have a copy/paste of the full one I'd read it gladly.

Also:

The problem with this analysis is that the decision to invade, terrible as it was, didn't just exist in a vacuum - Putin didn't wake up one morning last October and think that now was the time to invade another country, these are long standing issues caused by a series of mistakes (many of them his), some of which are 100 years old. Crimea really was handed over to Ukraine relatively recently and in bizarre circumstances. The Donbass really became part of the (then) Ukrainian SSR for arcane reasons, again relatively (in historical terms) reasonably.

This issue (along with all complex territorial disputes) has to be seriously and competently discussed between nations in a free and fair way, with acknowledgements from all sides that the status quo can perpetuate injustices and keeping it may cause more trouble than it is worth. Just because of his shameful decision to invade we shouldn't forget that there are real issues here with what land is "Ukrainian" and what isn't.

 

[summerisle]

 

[davids]

You are the rare breed of Irishman that embraces the English occupying Northern Ireland. Fair play.

Your posts get stranger by the day. There are lots of Irishmen who embrace the Brits they usually make it pretty obvious by marching in daft Orange costumes.Twitter is surely calling you, people dying as we speak,the forum need your half hourly posts of them.

 

[davids]

Long arguments on why he has them, to be honest, as he's... usually problematic, let's say, with purges, unrest, dubious internal affairs decisions, corruption (I know I'm throwing stones in glass house regarding the last few things there lol with our elections and all the current things happening), so I would not trust him and many others don't either, which is why he's not listened to quite a lot. In the same sense that you won't listen to a raving madman about how you should fix problems with raving madmen kind of deal lol

He is an 'iron fist' type of leader and the problems aren't *despite* him, is my point, but more likely because of him.

Also an actively warring country.

Also an actively warring/anti-everyone leader... much like his Russian counterpart.

Unlikely, honestly, is my personal opinion.

Also Turkey is the biggest export of the grain/corn deal they brokered. So humanitarian of them - to buy cheap commodities in a deal which they brokered, no doubt, favourably to themselves.

And Zelensky and his Cayman Islands bank accounts? You obviously are going to ignore anything that doesn't fit your narrative no matter the source.

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

 

[The binman chronicles]

Good. I've heard some people say everything is BAU in Russia, when clearly it isn't (when I speak to people who aren't toeing the party line). They love their new year celebrations so the more things like this the better.

 

[tsubaki]

He probably remembers it was the US siting nuclear missiles on the Russian border in Turkey that kicked off the Cuban crisis.

TBF that wasn't the starting point of that, if anything it was the bluff that Khrushchev put out that the Soviets had a big lead in ICBMs (when in fact they absolutely didn't). This caused such a stink in US political circles that Eisenhower's calm handling of the Cold War (which was based on actual intelligence and operated skillfully by someone with actual experience of senior leadership) got binned off in a panic by JFK, Symington et al who then thought they had to be seen to act aggressively against Communism - resulting of course in the Bay of Pigs, increased involvement in Vietnam and basing obsolete missiles in Turkey.

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

Your posts get stranger by the day. There are lots of Irishmen who embrace the Brits they usually make it pretty obvious by marching in daft Orange costumes.Twitter is surely calling you, people dying as we speak,the forum need your half hourly posts of them.

I honestly did not know that you are a member of the Orange Lodge. Are they big in Dublin?

 

[davids]

TBF that wasn't the starting point of that, if anything it was the bluff that Khrushchev put out that the Soviets had a big lead in ICBMs (when in fact they absolutely didn't). This caused such a stink in US political circles that Eisenhower's calm handling of the Cold War (which was based on actual intelligence and operated skillfully by someone with actual experience of senior leadership) got binned off in a panic by JFK, Symington et al who then thought they had to be seen to act aggressively against Communism - resulting of course in the Bay of Pigs, increased involvement in Vietnam and basing obsolete missiles in Turkey.

Didn't need to be up to date missiles if they were sited on the Russian border. Interesting that dozey Joe has finally woken up to the fact that Putin is crazy enough to go nuclear.