Current Affairs Ukraine

[Martin Alvito]

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I don't think that's just a Russia problem.

One problem with letting an army off its leash is that, all of a sudden, the political masters need it a lot more. Those sorts of accusations are going to happen in occupied territory no matter what, because one way to win a war is to end the opponent's will to fight. It follows that the political masters are going to push back against the accusations, which provides cover for the acts to occur, and then leadership ends up having to do its best to sweep the whole thing under the rug.

That's a story that eventually played out in almost any protracted conflict you care to name. Armies have psychopaths in them because societies have psychopaths in them, and combat stresses do weird things to people.

 

[bluestevon]

I generally feed them until it should be clear to any external observer that they don't know what they're talking about, then leave them alone thereafter. Sunlight is the best disinfectant, and all that.


The cynical take is Kissinger's comment that nations don't have friends, they have interests. What we're learning (for the second time, really) is that it doesn't make sense to engage with countries whose values aren't consistent with our own, due to the nature of those interests. Those countries tend to benefit more from trade than democratic nations for a variety of reasons, but their leadership is also more isolated from the pain of cutting off trade flows.

What we end up doing when we engage with those countries, if you ask me, is strengthen leadership that then inevitably acts or threatens to act against our interests once they're holding more than a busted flush. George Kennan was right the first time around, and remains right. Nothing that has happened in the twenty-five years since Clinton extended MFN to China has convinced me that normalizing trade relations was a good idea.

The reason we observe the behavior, if you ask me, is the race to the bottom that occurs because somebody always benefits more from taking those actions than everybody else. The resulting collective action problem makes it predictable enough that trade will occur, and then there's a big FOMO problem.

Keenan was an amazingly astute person, like him or not he understood realities, and the ignoring of his policy was a disaster - expansion of NATO being a huge one.

Clinton escapes by and large from the criticism he should get for a variety of policies that longer term massively destabilized the world, the focus on his personal life masked what an utterly woeful president he was.

Kissenger although I hate his politics and views on many things is one of the most astute statesman in history, the brushing aside of what he said about Ukraine was unbelievable by people who actually semi idolize him.

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

I don't think that's just a Russia problem.

One problem with letting an army off its leash is that, all of a sudden, the political masters need it a lot more. Those sorts of accusations are going to happen in occupied territory no matter what, because one way to win a war is to end the opponent's will to fight. It follows that the political masters are going to push back against the accusations, which provides cover for the acts to occur, and then leadership ends up having to do its best to sweep the whole thing under the rug.

That's a story that eventually played out in almost any protracted conflict you care to name. Armies have psychopaths in them because societies have psychopaths in them, and combat stresses do weird things to people.

It defeinetely is a human issue in conflict but for the topic of this thread it is due to Russias actions in Ukraine.

 

[bluestevon]

Haha

You've done a hell of a lot more than 'ask questions' in this thread.

You've been defending the indefensible and justifying the unjustifiable as highlighted in my original reply to you. Maybe time for a holiday lad, clear your head? I hear Belarus has some breathtaking scenery and a personalist dictatorship. You'll love it.

You mean your original reply to me of 'you're brainwashed, leave Russia and your wife '

Yup mate, amazing analysis and advice.

I'd suggest you take a holiday to clear your head also, but no need to clear something that's already empty

 

[Noisy noise annoys]

Conversely I've not seen any of the posters shouting about those things be accused of whataboutery mate.

I'll answer though, Syria was Russia and the US having a proxy conflict - then Russia put boots on the ground - the US didn't just continued supporting extremists both very culpable for everything that's happened and still is there.

Chechnya was brutal and was wrong.

Georgia was weird as effectively the Russians did what NATO did here and provoked a reaction and got what they wanted. Doesn't justify but let's not forget exactly what happened in Georgia

This is a thread about Russia invading Ukraine.

Stop with the “yeah, but nato…” bull*** in some pathetic attempt to excuse putins blood lust.

Honestly, you need to have to have a word.

 

[Martin Alvito]

Keenan was an amazingly astute person, like him or not he understood realities, and the ignoring of his policy was a disaster - expansion of NATO being a huge one.

Clinton escapes by and large from the criticism he should get for a variety of policies that longer term massively destabilized the world, the focus on his personal life masked what an utterly woeful president he was.

Kissenger although I hate his politics and views on many things is one of the most astute statesman in history, the brushing aside of what he said about Ukraine was unbelievable by people who actually semi idolize him.

There were an awful lot of eminent people on Kennan's side with respect to NATO expansion. IMO they won that round, but we did that discussion to death a while back in this thread.

Clinton lacked a coherent strategy, engaged in a great deal of short-term thinking, and took a lot of money from the Chinese in the 1996 election. IMO the MFN decision was a quid-pro-quo, but we'll probably have to wait for declassification to have a coherent answer to that one.

Kissinger is someone to listen to. It doesn't necessarily follow that you do what he says, but you hear him out.

It defeinetely is a human issue in conflict but for the topic of this thread it is due to Russias actions in Ukraine.

Point being, I'm not surprised that some of those things are happening, and the root cause is the initiation of a war of aggression. I think the results you're pointing to are fairly intractable problems, and that we're better off focusing on how to prevent the nonsense from occurring in the first place if we don't want to observe a recurrence of the results.

 

[Noisy noise annoys]

Conversely I've not seen any of the posters shouting about those things be accused of whataboutery mate.

I'll answer though, Syria was Russia and the US having a proxy conflict - then Russia put boots on the ground - the US didn't just continued supporting extremists both very culpable for everything that's happened and still is there.

Chechnya was brutal and was wrong.

Georgia was weird as effectively the Russians did what NATO did here and provoked a reaction and got what they wanted. Doesn't justify but let's not forget exactly what happened in Georgia

To add, you’re an excellent poster in the Everton forum!

 

[bluestevon]

This is a thread about Russia invading Ukraine.

Stop with the “yeah, but nato…” bull*** in some pathetic attempt to excuse putins blood lust.

Honestly, you need to have to have a word.

That's the thing though mate, you asked the question of why nobody says about those three incidents, and I answered you directly on them, that's not whataboutery - it's stating of facts on all three.

How can you answer a question about what Russia did in Syria without reference to the US, one is inextricably linked to the other. I didn't even go into Georgia about NATO when I could have easily as it did play a factor in the events, Chechnya I stared it was just wrong on every level

 

[Nightman]

You mean your original reply to me of 'you're brainwashed, leave Russia and your wife '

Yup mate, amazing analysis and advice.

I'd suggest you take a holiday to clear your head also, but no need to clear something that's already empty

I'm sorry, it's just can't I take you seriously at all.

Your knowledge on Eastern European history throughout this thread is interesting to read and demonstrates to me that you're an intelligent man. But woven in with your own distasteful, personal views... repeatedly... on this forum... at this time... tells me you're classless at best. But in this country (for the time being anyway), we somewhat have free speech, so you have a right to your voice, however distasteful and classless that voice may be. We fought for that (and will again if we have to).

 

[bluestevon]

To add, you’re an excellent poster in the Everton forum!

Not sure I am mate, I still remember my huge article just after Moshiri bought us saying how we needed to sign James Rodriguez as a statement signing....

 

[davids]

Anyone who supports Putins invasion is supporting paedophilia, rape and murder.

I do applaud your inclusion of the friend of Saville and the friend of Epstein into one of your slavering rants. Do hope one day they find themselves in a dock alongside Bush Blair and Putin to answer for their crimes.

 

[davids]

I'm sorry, it's just can't I take you seriously at all.

Your knowledge on Eastern European history throughout this thread is interesting to read and demonstrates to me that you're an intelligent man. But woven in with your own distasteful, personal views... repeatedly... on this forum... at this time... tells me you're classless at best. But in this country (for the time being anyway), we somewhat have free speech, so you have a right to your voice, however distasteful and classless that voice may be. We fought for that (and will again if we have to).

You need to have a word with Julian Assange... before the US bury him in a Federal State Prison.

 

[Yarrgh]

Right, IIRC there are literally over a million people with a Top Secret clearance in the United States.

Need-to-know precludes most people from seeing most classified information.

This is a very important point. No matter what your security clearance, it is made clear that if it's nowt to do with you, don't look at it regardless of the security markings. I presume that most in the US are like in the UK and follow this guidance to the letter.

 

[davids]

Your post just this morning at 10.01am, FFS. That's only an hour ago. Are you even aware of what you're writing?

Yes I am, I regularly post asking about the impending ceasefire calls from the US and EU. Sadly they never materialise.

 

[davids]

This is a very important point. No matter what your security clearance, it is made clear that if it's nowt to do with you, don't look at it regardless of the security markings. I presume that most in the US are like in the UK and follow this guidance to the letter.

You do realise he's taking about who's turn it is to buy the biscuits.