Roberto Martinez discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.
davek said:
I've no idea how I've done that. I've tried to reason that we are not as badly off as some are suggesting. You obviously think that's 'strange' and that running around screaming that your hair is on fire and encouraging general panic is a more fitting way to look at the position we're in.

Now THAT is bizarre.
Click to expand...
Create a poll on it mate, as I'm certain I'm not on my own with that particular view

#plotters
 
davek said:
But we dont measure ourselves with 'success'. We haven't for a long time.

The reason Kenwright brought Martinez in was that he bought into his vision that he could deliver a style of football that would ensure stability, because we'd be that grooved into good habits that we would never be in trouble (an emphasis on a system rather than great individual skills that also played well to Kenwright because it promised a production line of players coming through and saving on fees). I think Kenwright was sold on Martinez more on the grand plan at Swansea than the cup win at Wigan.

The plan is still there. You hear it in Martinez's comments defending himself against the press and ex players who want the return to the easy direct approach. I dont think we should judge this on top 5/6/7 finishes or not in the first two seasons, but more on whether we start playing with pace and precision week in, week out and the Martinez stamp is on the team by the end of next season. That's the yardstick for success here at Everton with Martinez.
Click to expand...

The above, and your previous post, Dave I am mostly in agreement with. This is a long term project by Martinez and it has Bills blessing...Bill probably being the only Prem chairman with the patience for such a long term project. I think the reliance/use of some of the older players who were able to integrate into the system...Barry, Hibbert, Osman, was because he knew the project was long term and he could not change the bulk of the playing staff in a couple of windows...this would be too radical and make us vunerable. As I said recently on another thread, Martinez big problem for the first couple of years, at least, of his project, will be to balance performance with the progress of the project and integration of new players in the right mould. We can expect a run of bad results/performances now and again, because the team is nowhere from being the finished article. Lukaku and Besic are pioneer players for Martinez vision of Everton 4 years or so hence, others like McGeady, Kone, Alcaraz, are merely stopgaps who can play the Martinez way. They will be replaced gradually as finances/circumstances permit. We will not be relegated, but I don't think that even a close brush with relegation will lose Martinez his job. He is here for the long term. His biggest fear would be, strangely enough, the sale of the club to parties who did not have BKs belief in a manager who is a 'sticker' or have an understanding of the project.
 
davek said:
But that's looking to the plan to evolve in a wholly results context. Martinez's objective has been to deepen with each season our squad's comfort and mastery of a passing game to a point where it becomes second nature. That was always the plan and if you obsess with results and league placing early on like this you completely miss the points the plan.

On that issue, I've been very critical of the way Martinez failed to progress us in the last transfer window in the summer. He became pretty conservative in giving out contract extensions to the old guard and not investing in the future. He let his belief that he could adapt the old guard and get them to keep on giving us progressive performances get the better of him Now that is looking like hubris as that same conservatism is dragging us down. He needs to be bold next summer and get back on track.
Click to expand...

Exactly. As frustrated as I am, I know that in a couple of years we'll be brilliant at this passing style soon enough.
 
Steve Wigan said:
The above, and your previous post, Dave I am mostly in agreement with. This is a long term project by Martinez and it has Bills blessing...Bill probably being the only Prem chairman with the patience for such a long term project. I think the reliance/use of some of the older players who were able to integrate into the system...Barry, Hibbert, Osman, was because he knew the project was long term and he could not change the bulk of the playing staff in a couple of windows...this would be too radical and make us vunerable. As I said recently on another thread, Martinez big problem for the first couple of years, at least, of his project, will be to balance performance with the progress of the project and integration of new players in the right mould. We can expect a run of bad results/performances now and again, because the team is nowhere from being the finished article. Lukaku and Besic are pioneer players for Martinez vision of Everton 4 years or so hence, others like McGeady, Kone, Alcaraz, are merely stopgaps who can play the Martinez way. They will be replaced gradually as finances/circumstances permit. We will not be relegated, but I don't think that even a close brush with relegation will lose Martinez his job. He is here for the long term. His biggest fear would be, strangely enough, the sale of the club to parties who did not have BKs belief in a manager who is a 'sticker' or have an understanding of the project.
Click to expand...
Spot on that Steve. Says all I want to on this distinction between short term reversals and long term objectives.
 
davek said:
Spot on that Steve. Says all I want to on this distinction between short term reversals and long term objectives.
Click to expand...

Daves now agreeing with Steve freaking Wigan.

cryinghandrub.gif
 
Saint Domingo said:
I till maintain its purely down to personnel. When you watch highlights from last season McCarthy is the one setting the tempo, shifting the ball around quickly to get Barry and Barkley into positions of space to get their head up and pick a pass. He was also winning it back as quickly and often surging forward taking players out of the game. Before he got injured we'd had a sluggish start but we were talking about pushing for fourth not fighting relegation. You can add in the fitness of John Stones last season making for a settled defense (we've already got back to drawing not losing since he returned). So with McCarthy and Stones shackling the door firmly shut we only needed someone to step up and put the ball in the net. Mirallas was almost injury free most of the season, as was Osman, and he had Deulofeu and Pienaar contributing. We won loads of games by a single goal.

This season with Stones' injury and Distin's decline the defense has been shaky, we got away with it a bit at first as McCarthy was still around but as soon as he was injured the door was wide open. The midfield struggle to do anything well without McCarthy and then in the offensive areas you've had Mirallas' head being somewhere else, Deulofeu gone, Osman and Pienaar injured, and Lukaku struggling with fitness for half a season. Quite simply more goals being conceded less being scored.

The system Martinez has built works with the right cogs in it. We saw that last season. If we get a replacement for Deulofeu, McCarthy and Stones stay fit for the rest of the campaign and we got some cameos out of Pienaar and Osman the winning football would come back. Martinez's major flaw is though that when his lynchpins aren't there (Stones McCarthy Lukaku) he still plays the same way and expects the same results. This is where his ego is so damaging.

When Moyes went people said that they didn't care about inconsistency as long as there were some highs. This is what we have to accept with Martinez. When its good it can be really good, dominating possession away from home at top sides restricting them to barely a shot on target. When its bad it is a train crash. He is I fear a big club manager who given a squad of 22 top players could make incredible teams. At Everton, however, he only has a handful. When they all play its great, but he doesn't recognise the problems when they don't.
Click to expand...

Agree with the most injuries etc . This is where you need a decent backbone in your staff. I rely on mine daily. Maybe his fault isn't on the pitch but what he does behind the doors with the others. This season was his one true test I'm not wanting him hung drawn a quartered just yet. I still stand behind we'll finish mid-table maybe ill cast judgement christmas. Hopefully the lessons will be learnt and no excuses like world cup etc.
 
davek said:
But we dont measure ourselves with 'success'. We haven't for a long time.

The reason Kenwright brought Martinez in was that he bought into his vision that he could deliver a style of football that would ensure stability, because we'd be that grooved into good habits that we would never be in trouble (an emphasis on a system rather than great individual skills that also played well to Kenwright because it promised a production line of players coming through and saving on fees). I think Kenwright was sold on Martinez more on the grand plan at Swansea than the cup win at Wigan.

The plan is still there. You hear it in Martinez's comments defending himself against the press and ex players who want the return to the easy direct approach. I dont think we should judge this on top 5/6/7 finishes or not in the first two seasons, but more on whether we start playing with pace and precision week in, week out and the Martinez stamp is on the team by the end of next season. That's the yardstick for success here at Everton with Martinez.
Click to expand...

I don't think that's accurate mate. Every team has their definition of success. For us it has been top 5/6/7 finishes. qualifying for Europe etc. Every team and even the most pragmatic of supporters, would regard those relative successes as stepping stones towards a greater goal.
Martinez talks of the experience of playing in Europe this year as if it is preparation for the future.
The term project/plan is used; but a project has to have a clear aim and defined end. What does that 'end' mean for us - good passing play? ok so what will that in turn deliver? Good passing play for the sake of it or results and subsequent success?

I'm not disagreeing with your notion that a long term plan exists, but I do question your apparent assertion that success should be dismissed at this juncture. Success is required to deliver the plan - in that staying up this year would be a 'success' if you baseline as from our situation following the Hull game. Staying up is a key 'success' milestone in delivering the long term plan.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar Threads

Welcome

Join the Everton conversation today.
Fewer ads, full access, completely free.

→ Log in 🔑 Register
🛒 Visit Shop

Support Grand Old Team by checking out our latest Everton gear!
Back
Top