Current Affairs Knife crime

[roydo]

How do cities have higher levels of inequality ? The pub I frequent has one chap who owns a Stately Home and a couple of thousand acres, standing next to him will be a mechanic on about £16K. There is a mix of rich farmers and poor farm workers, business owners and their employees, the car park consists of top of the range Range Rovers and cars worth £200. Yet everyone gets on with one another and no sees the need to pull out a knife. @COYBL25 probably nailed it with herd mentality......

That is exactly like my local Pete. Townies have this impression of rural living that is so off target its unreal.

 

[Woolverhampton_Blue]

Self defence I imagine......

Doesn't self defence have to be force that isn't exceeding the threat though? One was unarmed, and stabbing someone surely exceeds the threat he was under.

Personally I think anyone caught with a knife in a nightclub should automatically face a custodial sentence regardless of whether they use it or not.

 

[Woolverhampton_Blue]

That is exactly like my local Pete. Townies have this impression of rural living that is so off target its unreal.

Wow.

 

[peteblue]

Doesn't self defence have to be force that isn't exceeding the threat though? One was unarmed, and stabbing someone surely exceeds the threat he was under.

Personally I think anyone caught with a knife in a nightclub should automatically face a custodial sentence regardless of whether they use it or not.

No idea mate, I agree with custodial sentences though....

 

[roydo]

Wow.

What?

 

[Del-boy]

A young lad was recently stabbed to death in a nightclub. The assailant went to trial but somehow walked free. Despite there being solid evidence that he was carrying a knife in a nightclub and that he used it. Mind boggling and very worrying.

I remember that wasn’t too far back. Shocking really but think it was down to an error with the CPS only looking to charge for murder. He was cleared of this but you would have thought the CPS would have went for possession of a bladed article as well given the circumstances. Would of of got jail time for that albeit not much.

 

[dead_soft]

How do cities have higher levels of inequality ? The pub I frequent has one chap who owns a Stately Home and a couple of thousand acres, standing next to him will be a mechanic on about £16K. There is a mix of rich farmers and poor farm workers, business owners and their employees, the car park consists of top of the range Range Rovers and cars worth £200. Yet everyone gets on with one another and no one sees the need to pull out a knife. @COYBL25 probably nailed it with herd mentality......

Wealth distribution is more unequal in cities than it is writhing villages. You cannot use your fairly pointless anecdotal evidence to change the facts

 

[orchard]

There is certainly something to be said for looking at sentencing, but I think we make a mistake if we assume that there is a logical thought process to many of these crimes that will be deterred by sentences.

Most of the murders seem to be rows, over what amounts to nothing in the cold light of day, that have turned deadly because someone brought a knife along. The easiest way that these kids / youths, who lets not forget are a lot closer to this than we are, think that they can prevent being stabbed is to carry knives themselves - ideally the more spectacular looking the better (hence the fad for machetes / combat knives / zombie knives).

They are also familiar with a youth criminal justice system that doesn't really get effective until they actually kill someone or they turn 18, and an education system that despite all manner of good intentions still leaves poor kids, especially those who are not obviously academically bright, with the belief that they are on their own.

More policing and very long sentences for those being violent with knives.

Like you say mate, it appears society's breaking down further for some urban areas and that needs resolving imo. As to the causes I have no idea. Kids have always carried knives, who and why they are being used needs addressing.

 

[COYBL25]

How do cities have higher levels of inequality ? The pub I frequent has one chap who owns a Stately Home and a couple of thousand acres, standing next to him will be a mechanic on about £16K. There is a mix of rich farmers and poor farm workers, business owners and their employees, the car park consists of top of the range Range Rovers and cars worth £200. Yet everyone gets on with one another and no one sees the need to pull out a knife. @COYBL25 probably nailed it with herd mentality......

There`s a whole load of factors Pete :

The breakdown of the family.
The lack of non criminal male role models.
Fashion.
Music.
Drugs.
Lack of hope.
Peer pressure.
Herd mentality.
Poor schooling.
Poor housing.
Low self esteem.
Lack of self confidence.
The breakdown of law and order.

In short, being trapped by where you are born.

The fundamental difference between the city and the countryside, is the density of the population.

 

[PhilM]

Doesn't self defence have to be force that isn't exceeding the threat though? One was unarmed, and stabbing someone surely exceeds the threat he was under.

Not exactly, however it really works on a case by case basis so it's difficult to say yes or no - really it comes down to individual circumstances.

By law you're able to use reasonable force in context of a 'reasonably believed' threat and in some cases a disproportionate (not grossly) force.

With regards to the knife scenario for example, if someone is unarmed but presents a valid threat that may cause serious harm or even to life...

... and that threat continued, then in certain circumstances using a knife may be deemed appropriate; a pre-emptive strike may even be valid.

However, you would have to justify that the believed threat warranted such actions: if someone threw a punch, you couldn't just draw a knife.

 

[Woolverhampton_Blue]

Not exactly, however it really works on a case by case basis so it's difficult to say yes or no - really it comes down to individual circumstances.

By law you're able to use reasonable force in context of a 'reasonably believed' threat and in some cases a disproportionate (not grossly) force.

With regards to the knife scenario for example, if someone is unarmed but presents a valid threat that may cause serious harm or even to life...

... and that threat continued, then in certain circumstances using a knife may be deemed appropriate; a pre-emptive strike may even be valid.

However, you would have to justify that the believed threat warranted such actions: if someone threw a punch, you couldn't just draw a knife.

Thanks for clarifying what can legally be considered self defence.

In the example I shared it's hard to see how the use of a knife could be reconciled with the definition you give. There must have been some extreme extenuating circumstance or the jury have simply failed remarkably in their job.

 

[roydo]

There`s a whole load of factors Pete :

The breakdown of the family.
The lack of non criminal male role models.
Fashion.
Music.
Drugs.
Lack of hope.
Peer pressure.
Herd mentality.
Poor schooling.
Poor housing.
Low self esteem.
Lack of self confidence.
The breakdown of law and order.

In short, being trapped by where you are born.

The fundamental difference between the city and the countryside, is the density of the population.

But all of that ^^^^ can and does apply in the countryside mate. Albeit to fewer people cos as you pointed out, the density of population is less.

In my quiet corner of the country we have no mains gas, no public transport, (first thing to be cut a few years back), terrible roads, frequent power cuts, until recently terrible BB speed, 3 inches of snow cuts us off from any shops or services, (and always the last to be cleared), no school, no GP surgery, I could go on.

Rural living is not like Emmerdale mate, in the same way City dwelling aint Eastenders or Corrie.

 

[PhilM]

Thanks for clarifying what can legally be considered self defence.

In the example I shared it's hard to see how the use of a knife could be reconciled with the definition you give. There must have been some extreme extenuating circumstance or the jury have simply failed remarkably in their job.

I've actually only briefly read your original comment on the incident you're referring to and I find it shocking that he's not be convicted.

There is no way you'd be able to argue carrying an offensive weapon and then using it as a defence, so I guess it'll be another factor involved.

 

[PhilM]

Thanks for clarifying what can legally be considered self defence.

In the example I shared it's hard to see how the use of a knife could be reconciled with the definition you give. There must have been some extreme extenuating circumstance or the jury have simply failed remarkably in their job.

I've actually only briefly read your original comment on the incident you're referring to and I find it shocking that he's not be convicted.

There is no way you'd be able to argue carrying an offensive weapon and then using it as a defence, so I guess it'll be another factor involved.

 

[Woolverhampton_Blue]

I've actually only briefly read your original comment on the incident you're referring to and I find it shocking that he's not be convicted.

There is no way you'd be able to argue carrying an offensive weapon and then using it as a defence, so I guess it'll be another factor involved.

There has to be some other factor. His family are understandably disgusted with the jurors.

Back to the original point of the thread, it's worrying how many young people are carrying knives and are willing to use them over what often amounts to very little.