Current Affairs Israel is an apartheid state

[TrachyBlue]

Well i had an exchange of views with @WA Toffee who i feel is one of the more reasonable people on the pro Palestine argument.

Although he or she has come against the more extremist of the anti Israel posters as well to be fair to them.

When people just throw out things like you are a racist and you are a genocide supporter etc, then i have no respect for people like that and refuse to engage with them.

You are a racist and you are a genocide supporter. No debate required.

 

[Armaghtoffee]

You think the Aman (Israeli intelligence) are the 'men on the ground'?

Of course there will be rogue fighters within the IDF, ones who actively and purposefully kill civilians - the same as every other Army in the world.

Daniel Khalife, the British Soldier who escaped from Wandsworth was spying for Iran, British Intelligence didn't know about this. Australian soldiers were spying for Russia, British SAS were running 'hit squads' in Afghanistan and MANY MANY more, hitmen, rapes, murders, espionage the lot.

I'm sure the Aman aren't omnipresent mate, so yes I can have it both ways.

Either the intelligence services, or Govt if you will, are in control of their army or they aren’t. To suggest that it is both ways is not a reasonable proposition.

 

[d34noj]

Being supportive of attacks on the 7th doesn’t = being a complicit human shield against a world power that has no problem killing them.

So we’re in agreement that the IDF have crossed the line several times & therefore have broken international law?

There has been plenty of missile strikes on residential buildings with no proof of military targets, so it’s either they’re not as good as we all thought they were or they’re not bothered at flattening buildings with civilians in.

Rogue? I severely doubt it. If the likes of Unit 8200, 504 & Aman are providing false information towards PFAs then the IDF are severely compromised.

Absolutely it does.

Yes of course they've 'crossed the line' - wrong munitions have been used, famine as a tactic of war is against ICC rules if the war is an international conflict, however the Hamas/Israel war is both international and non-international (not that it matters, as Israel hasn't ratified the Rome Statute so it doesn't fall under it's jurisdiction)

Of course there's missile strikes on residential buildings, like I said - literally EVERY OTHER house is connected with tunnels meaning they're a military target if they're being used to store munitions - it's well documented that they are. As for the 'not bothered at flattening buildings with civilians in', like I said before mate - proportionality.

As for 'you severely doubt it' - what do you mean providing false information? If IDF soldiers take it upon themselves (hence rogue units) without due knowledge of the powers that be, then i'm not sure how you come to the conclusion the IDF are 'severely compromised'.

 

[NeroCeasar]

Absolutely it does.

Yes of course they've 'crossed the line' - wrong munitions have been used, famine as a tactic of war is against ICC rules if the war is an international conflict, however the Hamas/Israel war is both international and non-international (not that it matters, as Israel hasn't ratified the Rome Statute so it doesn't fall under it's jurisdiction)

Of course there's missile strikes on residential buildings, like I said - literally EVERY OTHER house is connected with tunnels meaning they're a military target if they're being used to store munitions - it's well documented that they are. As for the 'not bothered at flattening buildings with civilians in', like I said before mate - proportionality.

As for 'you severely doubt it' - what do you mean providing false information? If IDF soldiers take it upon themselves (hence rogue units) without due knowledge of the powers that be, then i'm not sure how you come to the conclusion the IDF are 'severely compromised'.

Instead of spouting about international laws of war and whether this war reaches the correct definition of an international conflict, you just apply your own moral compass to what has been going and see where that takes you?
That's what everyone else has done, cast aside the ins and outs of the rules of war and saw that killing 40k+ and levelling a country to the ground is morally and ethically wrong. The same way as the October 7th attacks on Isreal were morally and ethically wrong

 

[d34noj]

Instead of spouting about international laws of war and whether this war reaches the correct definition of an international conflict, you just apply your own moral compass to what has been going and see where that takes you?
That's what everyone else has done, cast aside the ins and outs of the rules of war and saw that killing 40k+ and levelling a country to the ground is morally and ethically wrong. The same way as the October 7th attacks on Isreal were morally and ethically wrong

No I get it mate, i'm taking my personal perspective out of it - my moral compass is very much guided by facts (if you've not already noticed) as opposed to feelings & sometimes (it appears) virtue signalling in here.

Casting aside the legality of war, of course it's horrific - but what war isn't, and why is this this war so different?... because it's being played out over the news/social media/influencers, singing to the tune of Hamas Lawfare to garner sympathy to the Palestinian cause, seeking to achieve its goals before international pressure forces it to stop operations, allowing for Hamas to regroup.


Personally - i'm not gullible enough to believe everything I read on the internet and I think i'm intelligent enough to extract enough information from both sides to form my own non-biased opinion.

 

[NeroCeasar]

No I get it mate, i'm taking my personal perspective out of it - my moral compass is very much guided by facts (if you've not already noticed) as opposed to feelings & sometimes (it appears) virtue signalling in here.

Casting aside the legality of war, of course it's horrific - but what war isn't, and why is this this war so different?... because it's being played out over the news/social media/influencers, singing to the tune of Hamas Lawfare to garner sympathy to the Palestinian cause, seeking to achieve its goals before international pressure forces it to stop operations, allowing for Hamas to regroup.


Personally - i'm not gullible enough to believe everything I read on the internet and I think i'm intelligent enough to extract enough information from both sides to form my own non-biased opinion.

Sometimes it's better to be thought a fool then open your mouth and remove all doubt.

 

[d34noj]

Sometimes it's better to be thought a fool then open your mouth and remove all doubt.

It's genuinely a good job i'm not bothered about what strangers on the internet think isn't it.

Wasn't a very good retort in all honesty, i'm saying 4/10. If you have any actual input or just a lame insult i'd love to hear it - as from what I can see, everything i've written is fact.

 

[NeroCeasar]

It's genuinely a good job i'm not bothered about what strangers on the internet think isn't it.

Wasn't a very good retort in all honesty, i'm saying 4/10. If you have any actual input or just a lame insult i'd love to hear it - as from what I can see, everything i've written is fact.

Instead of just saying, ya everything Isreal has done is morally reprehensible, you decided to go with "I'm not gullible enough to believe everything I read on the internet". There is no gullibility in believing 40k+ people have been killed and a country raised to the ground in pursuit of a political goal. You clearly seem to be able to reconcile those facts with your own moral compass and you seek to overtly defend the perpetrators. You accuse people of virtue signalling over the deaths of 40k+, I did well to stop at fool tbh

 

[Toffeeslam]

No I get it mate, i'm taking my personal perspective out of it - my moral compass is very much guided by facts (if you've not already noticed) as opposed to feelings & sometimes (it appears) virtue signalling in here.

Casting aside the legality of war, of course it's horrific - but what war isn't, and why is this this war so different?... because it's being played out over the news/social media/influencers, singing to the tune of Hamas Lawfare to garner sympathy to the Palestinian cause, seeking to achieve its goals before international pressure forces it to stop operations, allowing for Hamas to regroup.


Personally - i'm not gullible enough to believe everything I read on the internet and I think i'm intelligent enough to extract enough information from both sides to form my own non-biased opinion.

Your only talking about this particular event in isolation, this has been going on for decades and the Israelis have been slowly mistreating and imposing an apartheid regime on the Palestinians.

No one in the western world said anything even when humanitarian organisations like HRW, amnesty international, bait salem ( think that’s how it’s spelt) and the UN are calling this apartheid.

It’s why Israel does everything to undermine those organisations

Ex soldiers speaking out about the military doctrine to make like so uncomfortable for the Palestinians so they will vacate the land for settlers and not only are people denying this is happening but making excuses for it.

Hamas are bad but so are the Israelis and let’s not forget Hamas was an Israeli creation to divide the Palestinian leadership and undermine Yassar Arafat.

October 7th happened because of everyone failure to advance a two state solution instead we allowed the Israelis to abuse Palestinians and using violence to force them of land they have been living on for centuries at the behest of Israel.

Remember the Israelis are saying they will never allow a Palestinian state and in the voice of one Israeli cabinet minister

‘The Palestinians have 3 choices, they can live like 2nd class citizens, they can leave or they can die’.

That’s what people are defending here

 

[d34noj]

Your only talking about this particular event in isolation, this has been going on for decades and the Israelis have been slowly mistreating and imposing an apartheid regime on the Palestinians.

No one in the western world said anything even when humanitarian organisations like HRW, amnesty international, bait salem ( think that’s how it’s spelt) and the UN are calling this apartheid.

It’s why Israel does everything to undermine those organisations

Ex soldiers speaking out about the military doctrine to make like so uncomfortable for the Palestinians so they will vacate the land for settlers and not only are people denying this is happening but making excuses for it.

Hamas are bad but so are the Israelis and let’s not forget Hamas was an Israeli creation to divide the Palestinian leadership and undermine Yassar Arafat.

October 7th happened because of everyone failure to advance a two state solution instead we allowed the Israelis to abuse Palestinians and using violence to force them of land they have been living on for centuries at the behest of Israel.

Remember the Israelis are saying they will never allow a Palestinian state and in the voice of one Israeli cabinet minister

‘The Palestinians have 3 choices, they can live like 2nd class citizens, they can leave or they can die’.

That’s what people are defending here

I'm 100% aware of all of this, you're talking like I've not said all of this already in this thread.

I think the Netanyahu turned it down due to security concerns (I think he wants to he the man who ends Hamas) - Palestine have currently turned down a 2 state solution 6 times to date I think?

Talk like the October 7th paragraph sounds like justification which is what @Cork Evertonian is getting at I think, I'm sure you don't mean it that way, but there is absolutely no justification regardless of history.

Which cabinet minister said this mate, I can't find a direct quote.

Thanks for the civil reply, as I've said multiple times - dialogue and debate is the only way forward with this topic, not crying and slandering.

 

[Daveysgingerlovechild]

They are allowed their opinions and bias.

Hmmm, can the "don't be a tit" thing be invoked? At an existential level. Might be stretching the rules, but hey, live a little!

 

[Blue 1]

From Haaretz.

 

[Cork Evertonian]

Hmmm, can the "don't be a tit" thing be invoked? At an existential level. Might be stretching the rules, but hey, live a little!

So will i just say Hamas are good and Israel are bad then just to please some people? As i've said on countless occasions i don't want any innocent people being killed.

I don't want any hostages being taken and for the Israeli state and people to be under attack. Unfortunately the opposite to all of this is happening.

 

[Daveysgingerlovechild]

So will i just say Hamas are good and Israel are bad then just to please some people? As i've said on countless occasions i don't want any innocent people being killed.

I don't want any hostages being taken and for the Israeli state and people to be under attack. Unfortunately the opposite to all of this is happening.

BAN

 

[Armaghtoffee]

So will i just say Hamas are good and Israel are bad then just to please some people? As i've said on countless occasions i don't want any innocent people being killed.

I don't want any hostages being taken and for the Israeli state and people to be under attack. Unfortunately the opposite to all of this is happening.

Yet you can’t give a simple yes or no to @WA Toffee ‘s post even when prompted by @Eidean

Ah hello @Cork Evertonian, nice of you to reply.

That’s not what his question was. His question was specifically, do you think Israel’s actions are justified with the killing of thousands of civilians?

Hello lad, happy new year, not sure if you seen my reply before so thought I’d try again.



Can you answer the question in bold please?

It’s simple- just address the direct question with a Yes or No.

Have the courage of your convictions or retract them.