Current Affairs Irish Border and Brexit

[tsubaki]

Well, the U.K. would not have even had a vote about leaving if the EU hadn’t treated Cameron like crap. But everyone keeps telling me that the EU is involved and central to this, yet the EU just does a Pontius Pilate act, washes its hands and then says it’s all impossible......and yes the EU are delighted that this has given them a negotiating advantage.....

Of course it would have - Cameron had promised the referendum and had to give it or he would have been eaten by his own side.

As for treating "Cameron like crap", he did what all British PMs post-Thatcher have done and blamed the EU for decisions he had taken himself, it shouldn't surprise anyone to find out that he got nothing when he asked for nothing in the first place.

 

[roydo]

You see these two posts Roydo, watch how many actually try to answer them.....

It just underlines my point that millions voted for something, on both sides, they/me didnt really think through.

 

[peteblue]

Are you saying the EU are enforcing a border mate?

They are not enforcing a border, they are demanding one.......

 

[roydo]

They are not enforcing a border, they are demanding one.......

And why wouldnt they?

 

[Taifi gorm]

I think I was asked about cameras and I said there should be no cameras at a border, but please show me where I’m wrong. And if we are talking about Irish history, of which I would bet I know as well as you do, but I would not call you ignorant, can you please explain why, when ROI left the U.K. did the UK ensure that all future trading and common travel was made as easy as possible. The same thing is happening now, the U.K. is declaring its independence from the EU, yet the ROI and the EU, not the individual countries mind, are trying to make this as difficult as possible.....why ?.......and I see that you agree with me that ‘the Irish and British governments have all clearly come out in saying no physical infrastructure of any kind at the border’, which is what I have said consistently through this thread.....I don’t wish to see any kind of border, so again for the thousandth time, JUST WHO IS IT THAT WANTS A HARD BORDER.......

Just dropping a heads up FYI regarding the Anglo-Irish trade wars, British demands for war reparations and payments of British landlords and national debt, but sure as you contend you're well versed in the convivial nature of the Irish experience of ehm Britain's benevolent omniscience. Or perhaps you were contending that the relaxed movement between the two states that continued post-independence due primarily to British law refusing to recognise the Irish free state is a model to be replicated as a contemporary resolution and consequently the solution to the problem is for the Eu to simply ignore the brexit result honouring the British tradition.

 

[peteblue]

It just underlines my point that millions voted for something, on both sides, they/me didnt really think through.

I still think you do the Leave vote a disservice. Of course there are things that they may not have considered, we are 18 months into still identifying the issues built up over the last 40+ years, but they had to decide to go against the overwhelming political voice, the media, the BBC, the status quo. To do so took a degree of guts. To vote remain was rather easy by comparison......no offence to remainers......

 

[peteblue]

And why wouldnt they?

Because they don’t understand or care about NI or ROI.......they just want any advantage in negotiations with the U.K.......

 

[peteblue]

Of course it would have - Cameron had promised the referendum and had to give it or he would have been eaten by his own side.

As for treating "Cameron like crap", he did what all British PMs post-Thatcher have done and blamed the EU for decisions he had taken himself, it shouldn't surprise anyone to find out that he got nothing when he asked for nothing in the first place.

What should he have asked for......

 

[tsubaki]

It just underlines my point that millions voted for something, on both sides, they/me didnt really think through.

I am not sure how true that is - we were asked our opinion on the EU and gave the same decision that half of Europe would probably give, if they were ever asked.

The electorate was lied to repeatedly, by both sides, but the decision it gave is one that is very hard to argue with. The EU as it currently exists is a mess, it is on the wrong path and it needs huge reform. The tragedy is that we are stuck in a position where that reform isn't an option, only "the EU is the only possible Europe" or Brexit.

 

[tsubaki]

What should he have asked for......

Seriously?

He should have gone in there and listed everything that is wrong with the EU - the imbalance towards the wishes of one major country, the complete lack of any coherent pan-European response or system to immigration, cross-border crime and terrorism, the complete lack of any plans to harmonize welfare / tax / legislation among member states or any serious attempts to allow the population of the continent to speak to each other, the colossal waste of money involved in maintaining 28 separate nation states and several layers of government inbetween them and the failure of almost all constituent nations to contribute to the common defence of all. He should have pointed out to them that the way the EU is organized guarantees graft, incompetence and a bureaucracy that does almost nothing whilst damaging the ideas that are meant to bring us all together.

They would have laughed him out of the chamber, but the people of Europe would have agreed with him.

 

[peteblue]

Seriously?

He should have gone in there and listed everything that is wrong with the EU - the imbalance towards the wishes of one major country, the complete lack of any coherent pan-European response or system to immigration, cross-border crime and terrorism, the complete lack of any plans to harmonize welfare / tax / legislation among member states or any serious attempts to allow the population of the continent to speak to each other, the colossal waste of money involved in maintaining 28 separate nation states and several layers of government inbetween them and the failure of almost all constituent nations to contribute to the common defence of all. He should have pointed out to them that the way the EU is organized guarantees graft, incompetence and a bureaucracy that does almost nothing whilst damaging the ideas that are meant to bring us all together.

They would have laughed him out of the chamber, but the people of Europe would have agreed with him.

Sorry mate, I only asked because it’s nice to see that some agree it’s failing......great answer by the way....

 

[Neiler]

They are storing the pot without sorting a trade deal first!

They are not letting the U.K. progress their prioritized agenda until the NI situation is resolved, as a democratic socialist I am really impressed that the EU is giving the time and priority the marginalized communities in the north. Less so with the U.K. government who are frustrated by but would be happy to kick the can down the road and go ahead negotiating with issues of importance.

Of course politics is at play, but that and the above aren’t mutally exclusive.

The U.K. is having the agenda dictated to them, it was always going to be and will continue to be the case.

 

[Neiler]

They are not enforcing a border, they are demanding one.......

How so mate?

What is the stimulus for this set of circumstances and why is change necessary, the cornel of the issue is change within the U.K., every time.

 

[peteblue]

How so mate?

What is the stimulus for this set of circumstances and why is change necessary, the cornel of the issue is change within the U.K., every time.

Ah, what came first, Brexit or EU rejection of Cameron’s requests. But the truth is that whatever came first, whoever is to blame, it really doesn’t matter, now it’s about how to resolve it.....

 

[peteblue]

They are not letting the U.K. progress their prioritized agenda until the NI situation is resolved, as a democratic socialist I am really impressed that the EU is giving the time and priority the marginalized communities in the north. Less so with the U.K. government who are frustrated by but would be happy to kick the can down the road and go ahead negotiating with issues of importance.

Of course politics is at play, but that and the above aren’t mutally exclusive.

The U.K. is having the agenda dictated to them, it was always going to be and will continue to be the case.

Have you ever seen a negotiated agreement where one side has the agenda dictated to them, I can think of just three occasions, with Germany in WW1 and WW2 and Japan in WW2. I didn’t realise we were at war with the EU, but if we are then so be it.......