Current Affairs Irish Border and Brexit

[peteblue]

I think the UK are massively surprised that the NI question is as key to whole process as it is to be honest, I also think they don’t like the fact it’s top of the agenda before any other progress can be made.

I certsinly think the UK mean no harm and would like to maintain the status quo in NI, however May is making a dogs dinner of it, making agreements with the EU/ROI then reassuring Unionists of something else. Very public statements about complex issues. This is self serving to keep her government alive, but ultimately she is antagonizing everyone and creating bad will and tensions in communities. It will be the sword she will fall on, either by a hard Brexit or the DUP bringing down the government. To be honest I think she will shaft the DUP and the soft border (it definitely won’t be called a border) will exist between NI and main land U.K., concessions will be made to appease the uninionist community in the north of course.

The problem is that we’re talking about an issue as if it were already here. It isn’t. This is horse before the cart stuff. If a sensible trading relationship between the U.K. and EU is put in place then this issue goes away......

 

[peteblue]

Another camera? Have you any idea how many border crossings there are? I can absolutely assure you that there aren’t cameras at many of the border crossings currently, if any. On border crossings, I have seen signs for ‘northern ireland’ That are riddled with bullets and sprayed with FTQ. Any unmanned cctv would be sabotaged as quick as it was erected.

Also, erecting cctv in remote countryside is surely more of a logistical challenge than at a hospital or school.

As for the excuse part, terrorists arent the most rational bunch. Symbolism plays a massive role in ni politics. Anything but a frictionless, unmanned border will be seen as a threat and call to arms.

So what’s the problem. If all the people of NI and ROI don’t want a border and the U.K. doesn’t want a border who does ?

 

[peteblue]

If the roles in this were reversed and the U.K. voted to remain but the ROI had voted to leave the EU, would this even be an issue. The EU bureaucrats would still be demanding a border, but the U.K. would have told them, politely, to butt out....

 

[Ron Swanson]

So what’s the problem. If all the people of NI and ROI don’t want a border and the U.K. doesn’t want a border who does ?

How does the uk control it’s borders while leaving over 100 border crossing points open? How do they appease disgruntled businesses and shop owners that will see untaxed goods come in over the border and undercut them? How do they police immigration with no passport control? How do the ROI and Eu safeguard against food and products that contravene its laws passing into the country?

And there are plenty of hardcore unionists that would be happy to see a hard customs border. And huge swathes of leave voters voiced a desire to control borders. Immigration was the key to leave winning.

No disrespect, but you’re treating this critical and nuanced issue with flippancy and ignorance.

 

[Ron Swanson]

If the roles in this were reversed and the U.K. voted to remain but the ROI had voted to leave the EU, would this even be an issue. The EU bureaucrats would still be demanding a border, but the U.K. would have told them, politely, to butt out....

They’d have told the ROI that they made their bed, now lie in it. They’d have told them that it was their decision and they must accept the consequences. The uk would try to bully them into accepting a Single market/cu deal.

 

[Ron Swanson]

What is the technical border crossing that people speak of? What does it consist of? Is it in use anywhere else at the moment? Who develops it?

I guess we could look at the Swiss-French border. Or Gibraltar. But then both of these were easier logistically given the few border crossings involved and zero threat of terrorism. Even after taking on eu rules and regulations and joining schengen, Switzerland’s border isn’t frictionless.

From an eu perspective, a frictionless border with the uk leaves them open to challenges from the likes of Switzerland and also the eastern bloc countries and the likes of turkey.

 

[peteblue]

How does the uk control it’s borders while leaving over 100 border crossing points open? How do they appease disgruntled businesses and shop owners that will see untaxed goods come in over the border and undercut them? How do they police immigration with no passport control? How do the ROI and Eu safeguard against food and products that contravene its laws passing into the country?

And there are plenty of hardcore unionists that would be happy to see a hard customs border. And huge swathes of leave voters voiced a desire to control borders. Immigration was the key to leave winning.

No disrespect, but you’re treating this critical and nuanced issue with flippancy and ignorance.

Why are you so bothered about how the U.K. controls its borders, why can you not admit that it’s only the EU who is forcing a hard border......

 

[peteblue]

They’d have told the ROI that they made their bed, now lie in it. They’d have told them that it was their decision and they must accept the consequences. The uk would try to bully them into accepting a Single market/cu deal.

No they wouldn’t. Because the U.K. was the one that suffered from all of the previous trouble, not the EU nor indeed the ROI. But I’m glad that at least the answer you gave underlines the approach being brought to this issue by the EU and the ROI........

 

[hullefc]

So what’s the problem. If all the people of NI and ROI don’t want a border and the U.K. doesn’t want a border who does ?

Theresa May does.

“If we are out of the European Union with tariffs on exporting goods into the EU, there’d have to be something to recognise that, between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

“And if you pulled out of the EU and came out of free movement, then how could you have a situation where there was an open border with a country that was in the EU and has access to free movement.”

Theresa May said that in 2016, the UK can't have an open border between a country in the EU and one that is out in order to check the free movement of people. That is border guards checking passports i.e a hard border".

 

[peteblue]

Theresa May does.

“If we are out of the European Union with tariffs on exporting goods into the EU, there’d have to be something to recognise that, between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

“And if you pulled out of the EU and came out of free movement, then how could you have a situation where there was an open border with a country that was in the EU and has access to free movement.”

Theresa May said that in 2016, the UK can't have an open border between a country in the EU and one that is out in order to check the free movement of people. That is border guards checking passports i.e a hard border".

We have discussed all of this before, it would be nice if people would just be honest and admit that it’s their opposition to a successful Brexit that is driving all this......

 

[hullefc]

We have discussed all of this before, it would be nice if people would just be honest and admit that it’s their opposition to a successful Brexit that is driving all this......

The British Prime minister said in 2016 that a border is inevitable to control immigration into the UK, through the backdoor to quote Hoey. The British Prime minister said checking goods would mean a border between Northern Ireland and the Republic. What has changed since 2016? May must still believe the same now.

Not getting a 'successful Brexit' is simply down to the UK government. It is a bit rich for her to say today, 'let's get on with it', as she dithered and prevaricated for 20 months. The Tories are making a pigs ear of leaving the EU. They started these negotiations with threats and demands and 'they need us more than we need them' They hadn't a clue about the Good Friday Agreement and the Northern Ireland Act 1989. Their interpretation of what leaving the EU should look like will be the reason for a lack of 'success'.

 

[Ron Swanson]

No they wouldn’t. Because the U.K. was the one that suffered from all of the previous trouble, not the EU nor indeed the ROI. But I’m glad that at least the answer you gave underlines the approach being brought to this issue by the EU and the ROI........

The ROI didn’t suffer? I’ve heard everything now.

 

[Ron Swanson]

Why are you so bothered about how the U.K. controls its borders, why can you not admit that it’s only the EU who is forcing a hard border......

I care because this directly affects me, my family, my business and my personal safety. I had a childhood in the troubles. I’ve known people who were shot, blown up and maimed. Forgive me if I’m maybe a bit sensitive to threats to the agreement that helped bring about the end of that.

 

[Neiler]

The problem is that we’re talking about an issue as if it were already here. It isn’t. This is horse before the cart stuff. If a sensible trading relationship between the U.K. and EU is put in place then this issue goes away......

But that is the problem for the UK, the border issue is no 1 priority in negotiations i think the UK would love to kick the an down the road.

You make a good point mate, but its pie in the sky, it would be ideal if a bi lateral agreement could be made, but it cant simply because the ROI are in the EU and will remain so, Ireland wont leave not in a million years. Both markets to different extents are dependent on each other.

I think the economic argument is a narrow one, its part of it certainly, but the border and complex debate more then an economic one.

 

[peteblue]

I care because this directly affects me, my family, my business and my personal safety. I had a childhood in the troubles. I’ve known people who were shot, blown up and maimed. Forgive me if I’m maybe a bit sensitive to threats to the agreement that helped bring about the end of that.

And truly my sympathies go out to you and your family, no one should have to go through that again. But you more than anyone should be pushing all sides to get an agreement and sod the civil servants and bureaucrats. This should be beyond politics being played out by people in the U.K., ROI and the EU. Pushing one side only though, the side that actually wants a common sense approach, is not going to do it. Some politicians, wanting to reverse the Leave vote, are now shamelessly and irresponsibly pushing this issue having been mute about it until now. This in turn emboldens the EU to make proposals that it knows cannot be accepted by the U.K. .....