Current Affairs Irish Border and Brexit

[Harryflashman]

I did say economically not politically in a follow on post. Let me put it another way, if, for whatever reason, the ROI decided at some point in the future to exit the EU or the EU disintegrated, the first place both the ROI and the U.K. would look is to each other for economic continuity. However judging by some of the comments on here about issues going back 170 years, since when the British have fought the Chinese, Indians, South Africans, South Americans, the Irish, Italy, France, Iran, Afghanistan and a couple of World wars with Germany, all of whom have got over it, it would appear that some Irish will never let it go.......

Mate I disagree with you on brexit but I’m completely supportive of your right to believe in it and those like you to see democracy enacted however I’ve got to say I find your recent Irish comments at best ill judged.

I think at the heart of it I know what you’re trying to say but in the not too distant past the politics and history of that island have seen Irish and English people killed in significant numbers. It’s not something that can be dismissed as easily as you seem to think although I’m not convinced you really believe that .

My own and my families history in relation to the subject is at best complex and indicative of what a difficult and emotive subject It is and maybe just needs a bit more care .

 

[peteblue]

Maybe if Irish politicians were flip flopping about whether to stick up a border between areas or your home, that had previously led to years of violence and killing in your community you might find you would have a strong opinion of ill sentiment toward those institutions.

Certainly the UK doing their best to unravel years of progress in Anglo, Irish relations and the peace process.

What an utterly oblivious post.

You are arguing the wrong point with the wrong post. How are the U.K. doing their best to unravel years of progress in Anglo Irish relations. What has the U.K. Government actually done that drives you to such a conclusion.....

 

[Neiler]

You are arguing the wrong point with the wrong post. How are the U.K. doing their best to unravel years of progress in Anglo Irish relations. What has the U.K. Government actually done that drives you to such a conclusion.....

Because they are playing politics with the issue of the border, hard, soft to gain leverage for broader negotiations depending on who they are negotiating with the DUP, ROI or Europe. All the time playing with a vital element of a peace process that stopped two communities and two islands killing each other.

Additionally the U.K. government are in coalition domestically with the strongest uniononist party in the country, which completely undermines the democratic power sharing in NI, while the populist vote was to remain. The U.K. government needs to cultivate and appease the DUP at the detriment to the peace process and both communities in NI who have mandated against Brexit and the border. Being in coalition with the DUP undermines the Good Friday agreement, communities in NI and democracy in the north, by incentivizing them keep the power sharing institutions shut, why would you enter to power sharing when you can be part of the UK government and narginlise your rival community and mandate.

One week with the British government there will be a soft border as policy the next a hard border depending on whether the U.K. needs to cultivate the ROI, Europe or the DUP.

They are playing politics with war torn communities and the risk or return to violence over the border issue. All the while cultivating the DUP to stay in power themselves who are now incentivized to keep power sharing closed in NI marginalizing communities in the North in what is a hugely important political time re the border and brexit.

And you think Europe is autocratic.

 

[peteblue]

Mate I disagree with you on brexit but I’m completely supportive of your right to believe in it and those like you to see democracy enacted however I’ve got to say I find your recent Irish comments at best ill judged.

I think at the heart of it I know what you’re trying to say but in the not too distant past the politics and history of that island have seen Irish and English people killed in significant numbers. It’s not something that can be dismissed as easily as you seem to think although I’m not convinced you really believe that .

My own and my families history in relation to the subject is at best complex and indicative of what a difficult and emotive subject It is and maybe just needs a bit more care .

My family, all of Irish Catholic descent, have a similarly complex background and being in my 60’s have lived through the news if not the events. No one in the U.K. wants anything to get in the way of improving NI and ROI U.K. relationships, and there needn’t be any reason why this spectre should return. This whole thread consists of posts wanting to keep the border pretty well as is, the only question is how. The EU negotiators know that a seamless border can be achieved via technology and approved supplier agreements, but it suits both them and anti- Brexit supporters to build this up into something that cannot be achieved and that is the real issue. It is an emotive subject and it is difficult but it can be resolved and should not be allowed as a negotiating point in a future economic deal between the U.K. and the EU......

 

[peteblue]

Because they are playing politics with the issue of the border, hard, soft to gain leverage for broader negotiations depending on who they are negotiating with the DUP, ROI or Europe. All the time playing with a vital element of a peace process that stopped two communities and two islands killing each other.

Additionally the U.K. government are in coalition domestically with the strongest uniononist party in the country, which completely undermines the democratic power sharing in NI, while the populist vote was to remain. The U.K. government needs to cultivate and appease the DUP at the detriment to the peace process and both communities in NI who have mandated against Brexit and the border. Being in coalition with the DUP undermines the Good Friday agreement, communities in NI and democracy in the north, by incentivizing them keep the power sharing institutions shut, why would you enter to power sharing when you can be part of the UK government and narginlise your rival community and mandate.

One week with the British government there will be a soft border as policy the next a hard border depending on whether the U.K. needs to cultivate the ROI, Europe or the DUP.

They are playing politics with war torn communities and the risk or return to violence over the border issue. All the while cultivating the DUP to stay in power themselves who are now incentivized to keep power sharing closed in NI marginalizing communities in the North in what is a hugely important political time re the border and brexit.

And you think Europe is autocratic.

So what would you do to resolve this.....

 

[Harryflashman]

My family, all of Irish Catholic descent, have a similarly complex background and being in my 60’s have lived through the news if not the events. No one in the U.K. wants anything to get in the way of improving NI and ROI U.K. relationships, and there needn’t be any reason why this spectre should return. This whole thread consists of posts wanting to keep the border pretty well as is, the only question is how. The EU negotiators know that a seamless border can be achieved via technology and approved supplier agreements, but it suits both them and anti- Brexit supporters to build this up into something that cannot be achieved and that is the real issue. It is an emotive subject and it is difficult but it can be resolved and should not be allowed as a negotiating point in a future economic deal between the U.K. and the EU......

I think it’s going to be incredibly difficult to resolve but obviously I want It to be , that doesn’t mean I’m not struggling personally to see how . That said the tone of that post is certainly less controversial than some of your others .

 

[Armaghtoffee]

it would appear that some Irish will never let it go.......

Pete, you underismate what you are dealing with here. You have actually articulated the Boogeyman of Republican ideology.

Let it go? Ah C’mon Pete. The border has birthed decades of war, right on my doorstep. No border will be tolerated in Ireland, will I f£&& show a passport when driving to buy a loaf in Blaney.

Theresa said herself that Brexit will necessitate a hard border. The UK government is floundering to survive and the are relying on the right wing Orange Order.

Is that who you want negotiating for you Pete?

 

[peteblue]

Pete, you underismate what you are dealing with here. You have actually articulated the Boogeyman of Republican ideology.

Let it go? Ah C’mon Pete. The border has birthed decades of war, right on my doorstep. No border will be tolerated in Ireland, will I f£&& show a passport when driving to buy a loaf in Blaney.

Theresa said herself that Brexit will necessitate a hard bother. The UK government is floundering to survive and the are relying on the right wing Orange Order.

Is that who you want negotiating for you Pete?

I’d put it another way. The U.K. and the ROI put the GFA in place. The U.K. and the ROI had a CTA in place before the EU existed. Both the U.K. and the ROI joined the EU, the U.K. is now leaving the EU, why should the agreements between our two countries now be invalid. The U.K. don’t want it and I suspect the ROI don’t want it, the people certainly don’t want it. So exactly who is demanding it’s invalidation and why......the EU are making Brexit as difficult as possible, not for the benefits of our people, nor for the benefit of other European nations, but because they can......

 

[Charlie Sweet]

I did say economically not politically in a follow on post. Let me put it another way, if, for whatever reason, the ROI decided at some point in the future to exit the EU or the EU disintegrated, the first place both the ROI and the U.K. would look is to each other for economic continuity. However judging by some of the comments on here about issues going back 170 years, since when the British have fought the Chinese, Indians, South Africans, South Americans, the Irish, Italy, France, Iran, Afghanistan and a couple of World wars with Germany, all of whom have got over it, it would appear that some Irish will never let it go.......

Tell me would you also be saying the same to black South Africans?

"Now lads you've had a few years of democratic rule. Well done and all that but would you mind giving the country back to the Pro Apartheid crowd please?"

 

[Charlie Sweet]

I’d put it another way. The U.K. and the ROI put the GFA in place. The U.K. and the ROI had a CTA in place before the EU existed. Both the U.K. and the ROI joined the EU, the U.K. is now leaving the EU, why should the agreements between our two countries now be invalid. The U.K. don’t want it and I suspect the ROI don’t want it, the people certainly don’t want it. So exactly who is demanding it’s invalidation and why......the EU are making Brexit as difficult as possible, not for the benefits of our people, nor for the benefit of other European nations, but because they can......

Are you drunk already?

The UK chose Brexit. The UK are saying their default is WTO rules. WTO rules demand a hard border. I've said this to you about half a dozen times now.

The GFA was a compromise agreement at the end of 30 years of Troubles. It guarantees rights to the Irish in Northern Ireland which Brexit now threatens.

Ireland is part of the EU so cannot pick and choose its rules. The Irish border is an EU border.

Lastly remember that Northern Ireland voted massively to remain in the EU - especially all.kf the border counties. The very idea that the DUP - who went against their own people to promote a Leave vote (their campaign financed by a dodgy £400k loan) - are in government now claiming to represent Northern Ireland is utterly perverse.

 

[peteblue]

I think it’s going to be incredibly difficult to resolve but obviously I want It to be , that doesn’t mean I’m not struggling personally to see how . That said the tone of that post is certainly less controversial than some of your others .

There are answers to this and I’ve heard experienced customs people talk on the subject who have said so. Add in trusted supplier status, customs at point of transport (not border) and the technology in use and available today and a hard border need not exist. This whole debate could be closed within a week by people who actually want it to work and are not wedded to some man made rules created by bureaucrats in Brussels to which any divergence is ‘impossible’.......

 

[peteblue]

Tell me would you also be saying the same to black South Africans?

"Now lads you've had a few years of democratic rule. Well done and all that but would you mind giving the country back to the Pro Apartheid crowd please?"

Not a clue what point you are trying to make here.......

 

[Charlie Sweet]

As an aside I was chatting to some friends the other day and a fair few seem to know of - or hear tales of - various legal challenges being prepared to stop Brexit.

The thinking is if it's a Hard Brexit as one scenario envisages then an Irish citizen in the North is having having their rights guaranteed by the GFA massively compromised.

The European Court of Justice would be the arbitrator of that legal challenge (as set out in the GFA) and so the whole of Brexit could be thrown out and the UK would.not leave in March 2019 after all.

Thoughts?

 

[Charlie Sweet]

There are answers to this and I’ve heard experienced customs people talk on the subject who have said so. Add in trusted supplier status, customs at point of transport (not border) and the technology in use and available today and a hard border need not exist. This whole debate could be closed within a week by people who actually want it to work and are not wedded to some man made rules created by bureaucrats in Brussels to which any divergence is ‘impossible’.......

Does your 'solution' involve cameras at the border?

Not a clue what point you are trying to make here.......

Suggesting the Republic rejoins the UK is the same as telling a black South African to hand their coubtry back to the white Apartheid leaders.

 

[peteblue]

Are you drunk already?

The UK chose Brexit. The UK are saying their default is WTO rules. WTO rules demand a hard border. I've said this to you about half a dozen times now.

The GFA was a compromise agreement at the end of 30 years of Troubles. It guarantees rights to the Irish in Northern Ireland which Brexit now threatens.

Ireland is part of the EU so cannot pick and choose its rules. The Irish border is an EU border.

Lastly remember that Northern Ireland voted massively to remain in the EU - especially all.kf the border counties. The very idea that the DUP - who went against their own people to promote a Leave vote (their campaign financed by a dodgy £400k loan) - are in government now claiming to represent Northern Ireland is utterly perverse.

And there is the issue. Ireland is no longer a Sovereign country, remind me why it wanted independence. Where was the ‘hard border’ when millions of Syrians just walked into the EU. Why is the EU only insisting that this particular border cannot be accommodated via the use of technology and trusted supplier status etc etc......regarding the vote, it was a U.K. wide vote not a regional or country vote, it could just of easily seen England Scotland and Wales vote leave by a few thousand votes and NI vote remain, and we would have remained because it was a U.K. vote.......