Current Affairs Irish Border and Brexit

[Methuselah]

honestly, I'm not sure about the EU rule change you're referring to. If you could post a link, that would be great.
I refer to the house of lords and the Queen as examples of unelected positions of power in the UK.

Power? Tradition I think.

 

[Khalekan]

In my lifetime....

Douglas Home succeeded Macmillan

Callaghan succeeded Wilson

Major succeeded Thatcher

Brown succeeded Blair

May succeeded Cameron

....all without winning a GE beforehand


Rightly or wrongly, that is our system.

We vote for parties rather than leaders

Ergo if sommat happens mid term then party members will choose who is to lead their party and if he or she becomes PM on foot of that then be it so.

 

[Methuselah]

honestly, I'm not sure about the EU rule change you're referring to. If you could post a link, that would be great.
I refer to the house of lords and the Queen as examples of unelected positions of power in the UK.

Jean-Claude Juncker was elected under the Spitzenkandidat system in 2014. This system was dumped for the current nominations (maybe it didn't give the result they wanted). I think this is why Juncker is not a happy bunny.

 

[Ruairi77]

In my lifetime....

Douglas Home succeeded Macmillan

Callaghan succeeded Wilson

Major succeeded Thatcher

Brown succeeded Blair

May succeeded Cameron

....all without winning a GE beforehand


Rightly or wrongly, that is our system.

We vote for parties rather than leaders

Ergo if sommat happens mid term then party members will choose who is to lead their party and if he or she becomes PM on foot of that then be it so.

Oh I completely get that it's the system but it doesn't change the fact that some people vote for candidates based on who the party leader is. Lots won't vote labour because they don't like Corbyn. So half the time the public are indirectly voting for the PM, the other half, the public have far less say.
For what it's worth, I think it's a better system than directly electing a leader (PR is better than first past the post but that's for another thread).
I just don't think Methusla should be holding the UK up as the standard for representative democracy when complaining about democracy in the EU.

 

[JimmyJeffers]

Oh I completely get that it's the system but it doesn't change the fact that some people vote for candidates based on who the party leader is. Lots won't vote labour because they don't like Corbyn. So half the time the public are indirectly voting for the PM, the other half, the public have far less say.
For what it's worth, I think it's a better system than directly electing a leader (PR is better than first past the post but that's for another thread).
I just don't think Methusla should be holding the UK up as the standard for representative democracy when complaining about democracy in the EU.

It’s been mentioned time and time again. From what I can gather, people are ok with unelected representatives making decisions on our behalf as long as they’re not foreign.

 

[Ruairi77]

Jean-Claude Juncker was elected under the Spitzenkandidat system in 2014. This system was dumped for the current nominations (maybe it didn't give the result they wanted). I think this is why Juncker is not a happy bunny.

Right, so a quick look tells me that the system change in 2014 was part of the Lisbon treaty. The decision to vote on the Lisbon treaty was taken on a country by country basis. The fact that the UK did not vote on Lisbon is a UK issue, not an EU issue.

 

[Ruairi77]

This is a good explainer, certainty seems like a messy system
https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2018/1107/1009385-spitzenkandidaten/

 

[Methuselah]

Right, so a quick look tells me that the system change in 2014 was part of the Lisbon treaty. The decision to vote on the Lisbon treaty was taken on a country by country basis. The fact that the UK did not vote on Lisbon is a UK issue, not an EU issue.

I think you misunderstood my post. The system used to select Juncker in 2014 was dumped for the CURRENT selection of President + others.

 

[Khalekan]

I just don't think Methusla should be holding the UK up as the standard for representative democracy when complaining about democracy in the EU.

You're durn tootin' Ruari

 

[Ruairi77]

I think you misunderstood my post. The system used to select Juncker in 2014 was dumped for the CURRENT selection of President + others.

the article I linked is from 9 months ago.
it says
"The Spitzenkandidaten system is the current 'best guess'-type interpretation of Article 17 (7) of the Lisbon Treaty, which came into force in 2014.

It lays down the procedure for the election of the European Commission President."

 

[davids]

I’m not sure how many times the U.K. government has to say there will not be a hard border, nor the fact that it has even been written into UK law. So just who is putting a hard border up........l

So how do you have any control over immigration without a hard border?

 

[roydo]

So how do you have any control over immigration without a hard border?

I asked that 3 years ago mate. Not cos I had any knowledge of the issue, like most, it didnt even occur to me before the vote. But it pretty quickly became obvious is was an incredibly difficult circle to square.

So far, I have been told we have the tech gizmo to sort it, and also that its not our (Brexiteers) issue to deal with.

So, if you get an answer other than ^^^^^ that, let me know circa 2022.

 

[Carl O'Ancelotti]

Now even a time limited backstop (which the DUP were sort of OK with) has been ruled out by both the tory candidates.

This is only heading one way - over the cliff. They actually want a no deal Brexit but are too scared to say it in public.

Shameful when you considering that an 'NI only' backstop is still available as a solution, but they won't agree to it because they need the DUP to keep them in power.

God only knows where this will all end up.

 

[johnblue23]

Now even a time limited backstop (which the DUP were sort of OK with) has been ruled out by both the tory candidates.

This is only heading one way - over the cliff. They actually want a no deal Brexit but are too scared to say it in public.

Shameful when you considering that an 'NI only' backstop is still available as a solution, but they won't agree to it because they need the DUP to keep them in power.

God only knows where this will all end up.

Maybe a border poll for a united Ireland?

 

[Carl O'Ancelotti]

Maybe a border poll for a united Ireland?

That's certainly on the cards. And a lot sooner that it would have been without a no deal situation along with a much higher chance of a yes vote.