Current Affairs Irish Border and Brexit

[Ruairi77]

No one other than the E.U. is threatening the GFA......

The UK are

 

[RichardP]

To every nation in the wto ? So you expect them to change their rules to accommodate us , do you think that’s a likely outcome ?

I like a challenge! But, yes, it is possible.

We’ll have buckets of cash , We’ll be saving £350m a week aren’t we or was that just random figure to illustrate I struggle to keep up .

The exact amount, I cannot quote, I don't think anyone can tbh, but there is no doubt that UK would be significantly better off. As I mentioned in an earlier post, Ireland, as a net recipient of EU funds may well find itself in a net worse (much worse) off position as UK will no longer be paying membership fees to EU and several 'poorer' countries will be joining EU - which means either membership fees go up or the benefits of being 'in the club' go down, or both.

Ireland could then maybe reevaluate its own membership of EU. Voila, Border problem 99% solved.

 

[Ruairi77]

It is not just the Irish people that have been treated with contempt by May. She has also treated the British with the same contempt. I agree with much of what you just wrote. My deal solution is May goes, No deal, WTO treaties with everyone and an open border with Ireland but with heavy duty surveillance to identify those crossing the border as described in my earlier post.

But what if the people, both north and south, don’t want a border with heavy surveillance and voted so in a binding referendum. Is that not self determination?

 

[Harryflashman]

I like a challenge! But, yes, it is possible.



The exact amount, I cannot quote, I don't think anyone can tbh, but there is no doubt that UK would be significantly better off. As I mentioned in an earlier post, Ireland, as a net recipient of EU funds may well find itself in a net worse off position as UK will no longer be paying membership fees to EU and several 'poorer' countries will be joining EU - which means either membership fees go up or the benefits of being 'in the club' go down, or both.

Your first point again it’s the religious analogy of Brexit . Technology I don’t know understand or know exists can sort the border problem and yes I believe an organisation of more than 150 countries will change their established rules to allow us to have something we want because well I believe . If anybody is against what you believe or negative then they don’t believe enough or if any evidence is produced to say that things will be bad then that’s project fear and once more a lack of belief .

In someways admire a belief so strong it leads to the suspension of all reality or evidence . You can see why those who disagree scratch our heads when you’re presented with problems and you response that you like a challenge or it’s possible or I know the technology exists I just don’t know what it is . So you believe that the WTO will change its rules for us , how long do you estimate this will take and what happens if they don’t ?

As regards your second point we unsurprisingly wholly disagree on finances , but that’s provably more for the other thread

 

[RichardP]

But what if the people, both north and south, don’t want a border with heavy surveillance and voted so in a binding referendum. Is that not self determination?

It is. And you then get into the minutae of constitutions and legalities and have to question what, in effect, is a country? Is the UK to be considered (in the case of the referendum) as a single country (in which case the self determination argument imho becomes null and void) or an association of countries with (for now) one main political centre, in which case, you raise a most valid point.

 

[RichardP]

Your first point again it’s the religious analogy of Brexit . Technology I don’t know understand or know exists can sort the border problem and yes I believe an organisation of more than 150 countries will change their established rules to allow us to have something we want because well I believe . If anybody is against what you believe or negative then they don’t believe enough or if any evidence is produced to say that things will be bad then that’s project fear and once more a lack of belief .

In someways admire a belief so strong it leads to the suspension of all reality or evidence . You can see why those who disagree scratch our heads when you’re presented with problems and you response that you like a challenge or it’s possible or I know the technology exists I just don’t know what it is . So you believe that the WTO will change its rules for us , how long do you estimate this will take and what happens if they don’t ?

As regards your second point we unsurprisingly wholly disagree on finances , but that’s provably more for the other thread

I think that where we differ, if we go all the way back to first principles, is that I believe that no price is too great to pay to be free and independent and sovereign. And, whilst I like the idea of N Ireland (and Scotland) remaining a part of UK, I can also totally respect those that are prepared to pay any price for what they see as their freedom and independence. Caveat, that in this moden world I am not talking warfare but quality of life sacrifice.

Yes, there may be big challenges ahead, but bring them on and lets get them dealt with before we all become a homogenous blob of humanity, governed from Brussels and having to all bow before their altar of political correctness.

 

[zzr45]

I think that where we differ, if we go all the way back to first principles, is that I believe that no price is too great to pay to be free and independent and sovereign. And, whilst I like the idea of N Ireland (and Scotland) remaining a part of UK, I can also totally respect those that are prepared to pay any price for what they see as their freedom and independence. Caveat, that in this moden world I am not talking warfare but quality of life sacrifice.

Yes, there may be big challenges ahead, but bring them on and lets get them dealt with before we all become a homogenous blob of humanity, governed from Brussels and having to all bow before the altar of political correctness.

lollollollollollollollol

imagine trying to seem intellectual then typing that collection of words.

 

[RichardP]

lollollollollollollollol

imagine trying to seem intellectual then typing that collection of words.

If it wasn't so I wouldn't write it. But thank you, at least, for tacitly agreeing with what you didn't highlight in bold type.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/06...s-christianity-military-deterrence-democracy/

 

[Harryflashman]

I think that where we differ, if we go all the way back to first principles, is that I believe that no price is too great to pay to be free and independent and sovereign. And, whilst I like the idea of N Ireland (and Scotland) remaining a part of UK, I can also totally respect those that are prepared to pay any price for what they see as their freedom and independence. Caveat, that in this moden world I am not talking warfare but quality of life sacrifice.

Yes, there may be big challenges ahead, but bring them on and lets get them dealt with before we all become a homogenous blob of humanity, governed from Brussels and having to all bow before their altar of political correctness.

So in order to protect the sovereignty of your country , whatever that means , you’re prepared to see the country as it exists today Broken up ? Again religious fervour springs to mind reading your post , that it’ll be painful but worth it for the end of days and the happiness that it promises . I genuinely cannot understand your mentality . I get why some people want Brexit I do I understand their reasoning but when we get to this kind of ideology, from anybody about anything , my mind can’t just struggles to process it I’m if honest .

Plus I love the way you added a bit of political correctness in there at the end. It’s not my own words but a question I’ve heard posed , what is it you can’t say but want to ? What is it that political correctness prevents you from saying or doing that’s so important to you ?

 

[Groucho]

Why not just lay a lot of dynamite along the border, and then blow it up to separate the two countries? That would sort all the problems!

Might not be the best thing to ‘joke’ about there chap.

 

[Taifi gorm]

I think you are right that there are a few twists and turns yet. The biggest factor, to be totally blunt, is that the will of Parliament is at odds with the will of the people. So, either Parliament believes in democracy and delivers the will of the people or it doesn't and it takes the consequences - and never mind the 'troubles' - that could take us back to the days of Cromwell.

.
Referencing Cromwell in a political debate about Ireland real subtle

 

[zzr45]

If it wasn't so I wouldn't write it. But thank you, at least, for tacitly agreeing with what you didn't highlight in bold type.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/06...s-christianity-military-deterrence-democracy/

I didn't actually read anything you wrote. The political correctness line is like a flashing Neon sign declaring to one and all that whoever has written it has unleashed a tsunami of effluence and the best thing to do is ignore it as it sidles down into the drain of humanity.

Just be a bit more honest in future and write 'I'm a Daily Mail reading Bigot.'

 

[Armaghtoffee]

It is not just the Irish people that have been treated with contempt by May. She has also treated the British with the same contempt. I agree with much of what you just wrote. My deal solution is May goes, No deal, WTO treaties with everyone and an open border with Ireland but with heavy duty surveillance to identify those crossing the border as described in my earlier post.

It would invariably be a fudge, yes. No borders as such, no gates etc, but heavy duty surveillance along the entire border with mobile units ready to respond.

The plan will, hopefully, be implemented by people with more smarts than me and it may require a tweak to the GFA - not to the extent of a hard border of course and will be heavily reliant on technology. It does exist.

A simple analogy/background. I live in Dubai and I parked our car in a massive mall car park recently which was almost full. I obviously made a careful note of where I had parked so as to avoid any embarrassment later. When I came out of the mall there was a machine which I first thought was an ATM. However it was a 'car finder.' You type in 'as much of your car reg as you can remember' and within 3 seconds your car location is identified via cctv digital recognition of the plate and the location is displayed on the screen.

Now, if we can do that for cars, without installing tracking devices on the car, surely the same can be done with facial recognition technology for people via bio passport data base. I am not saying there won't be some logistical issues but it can be done. Those that say it can't are really saying that it won't imho.

For the reasons highlighted in bold I am just shaking my head reading your posts. Do you honestly not see any potential issues with what you are suggesting given the recent history of border counties. Talk of heavy surveillance and mobile units in the area is like reading army press briefings from 25 years ago.

As for amending the GFA to accommodate an easier Brexit for the U.K.? Unbelievable.

 

[RichardP]

So in order to protect the sovereignty of your country , whatever that means , you’re prepared to see the country as it exists today Broken up ? Again religious fervour springs to mind reading your post , that it’ll be painful but worth it for the end of days and the happiness that it promises . I genuinely cannot understand your mentality . I get why some people want Brexit I do I understand their reasoning but when we get to this kind of ideology, from anybody about anything , my mind can’t just struggles to process it I’m if honest .

Plus I love the way you added a bit of political correctness in there at the end. It’s not my own words but a question I’ve heard posed , what is it you can’t say but want to ? What is it that political correctness prevents you from saying or doing that’s so important to you ?

The only way I can explain it to you is that (to paraphrase) it is like being an Evertonian.

To those who believe in freedom, independence and sovereignty, no explanation is necessary. To those who do not, no explanation is possible.

 

[RichardP]

.
Referencing Cromwell in a political debate about Ireland real subtle

But relevant.