Current Affairs Irish Border and Brexit

[RichardP]

I have worked with them on their "emerging technologies" and they have none.

They are about data and like the ad you linked points out analytics.

Do you know anything about Accenture or was it the first thing you found in google?

I worked for them for 6 years and did projects with them on other projects as a consultant i can tell you first hand thats all nonsense. What they are advertising is what they could do if someone gave them the chance. It's mainly waffle.

I have worked with and still work with two of leaders in emerging tec in the automation field and although their are ways to help a border or border type stuff no one has anything that would be ready to be used and it would take a year or two to get something working. As other have mentioned also its a big undertaking.

Your ignorance on this thread has been deafening you are out of your depth quite simply.

Well, you are, of course, entitled to your opinion but let's see who swims and who sinks later this year shall we!

 

[RichardP]

I agree mate, zero control. Perhaps influence was the wrong word. N.I is uncontrollable. They could provide a framework as part of a negotitiation process similar to all party round table talks during the peace process inclusive of Unionists and Sinn Feinn and others. Then seek a mandate. That would however one would assume completely undermine the central negotiation approach of the UK government with the EU, but would as you have said promote self determination.

You have to understand the delicateness of the political ideology in N.I. The provisional IRA for example didn’t recognize the legitimacy of either UK goverment or the ROI goverment over the jurisdiction of a 32county Irish republic. That legacy stems from the first Dail in Ireland, which stated that in the case that if a 32 county Irish republic goverment couldn’t be convened through occupatiotion. Governance of the Irish Republic will revert to the army, I.e. the IRA Army Council.

The peace process protagonists from a republican perspetive convinced the army council, to abandon the armed struggle to pursue a political route to a United ireland. This has largely been the case.

What Brexit does, is threatens this homeostasis. The trigger of the war in Northern Ireland was the promotion of ethnic unionism over catholic rights. Essentially areas of catholic majorotes were Gerrymandered to return unionist majorities, to keep in place a unionist veto. This saw, Catholics having no civil rights in employment, housing, voteing or politics and kept them in the poverty trap, uneducated and second class citizens.

I mention this because tangents of history are repeating themselves. Tomorrow marks the second year, that the devolved power sharing executive has been shut down. Rule from Westminister is administered by a goverment at the whim of the DUP. Who intentionally won’t enter into power sharing devolved goverment in NI as they hold the balance of power in the UK, this completely Marjorie’s a nation isn’t mandate, Influencing NI politics. Very far from self determination. Secondly the British Goverment (DUP), are playing politics with one of the fundamental components of abandoning the armed struggle, the border.

Now if you are republican in West Belfast, you have no political representation, no devolved goverment, you feel you there is a unionist veto on your day to days affairs and a threat of an enforced border of partition, does that make you ,more or less likely to abandon the political route to a United Ireland.

The UK and Irish goverment have a subtle influence, but zero control in NI, I actually think both have been hubris in this regard. The UK or ROI will have zero say on events in NI ultmitely regardless of what agreement is reached on Brexit and borders but the process and outcome could be critical, that will be decided by the communities there.

I want to qualify the above, by saying I have keen interest in Irish history and have done much research on Northern Ireland and the war, i wholly abhor violence and pray things never get so bad as some of the times I’ve lived through on this island. My post is also from subjectively from one side of the communities perspective. To highlight one sides potential mindset or interrupting of events as they relate to Brexit, equally the same could be applied to unionists and loyalists and wouldn’t be a million miles off the same outcome. Thus is the delicateness in N.I.


It’s essentially what many describe here as the British and Irish goverments playing with fire.

Good post, well thought out and I can see it comes from the heart. This is the realistic goodwill and commonsense approach that I was talking about.

 

[RichardP]

I'm afraid it doesn't. You advised @Cork Evertonian to surrender his UK passport and move to Ireland, and no amount of wriggling around by you to try to get out of it can change that. For some bizarre reason you incorrectly assumed that he isn't Irish. Maybe you should heed your own advice that assumptions are dangerous things.

Whatever you say Mark.

Feel better now?

It's ok. I still understand.

I think I know where Cork is. Quite a few of my family are buried in St Oliver's.

 

[Harryflashman]

Well, you are, of course, entitled to your opinion but let's see who swims and who sinks later this year shall we!

It’s been mentioned in this thread repeatedly and I believe again recently , the only solution that seems vaguely workable is the line in the Irish Sea . That’d allow ukba to treat anyone arriving from the island as a foreign traveller , if that so desired , even considering the CTA. Clearly it’d mean travellers could be subject to any checks considered necessary but also allow the U.K. to hide behind the CTA if required. Obviously even in this scenario we’re need to change the way we treat those arriving from the island but it’d be easier than changing the way we treat citizens travelling domestically . It’s been ruled out by May and I think would isolate those in the north , make a united ireland significantly more likely and absolutely has the potential to lead to problems . It does despite all that seem to be the only thing I can see that’s half workable but I stress half .

The idea that we can solve the problem with vague talk of technology or advertisements with no detail seems to be the world of the ERG where they’ve talked about having a solution to the border problem without ever disclosing it to the waiting world . If there is a solution then those who’ve devised it seem incredibly keen to hide their light under a bushel and the technology that will facilitate it seems to be extremely hush hush .

I’m a remainer but we are where we are and we need a solution particularly to a problem that has the potential to be catastrophic. I’m hugely opposed to May in numerous ways but I can see she sees the backstop as just about the only way to manage this and it does make a little sense . I still wait to see how any of it’ll work , nothing seems to resolve any of the actual issues that exist .

 

[RichardP]

It’s been mentioned in this thread repeatedly and I believe again recently , the only solution that seems vaguely workable is the line in the Irish Sea . That’d allow ukba to treat anyone arriving from the island as a foreign traveller , if that so desired , even considering the CTA. Clearly it’d mean travellers could be subject to any checks considered necessary but also allow the U.K. to hide behind the CTA if required. Obviously even in this scenario we’re need to change the way we treat those arriving from the island but it’d be easier than changing the way we treat citizens travelling domestically . It’s been ruled out by May and I think would isolate those in the north , make a united ireland significantly more likely and absolutely has the potential to lead to problems . It does despite all that seem to be the only thing I can see that’s half workable but I stress half .

The idea that we can solve the problem with vague talk of technology or advertisements with no detail seems to be the world of the ERG where they’ve talked about having a solution to the border problem without ever disclosing it to the waiting world . If there is a solution then those who’ve devised it seem incredibly keen to hide their light under a bushel and the technology that will facilitate it seems to be extremely hush hush .

I’m a remainer but we are where we are and we need a solution particularly to a problem that has the potential to be catastrophic. I’m hugely opposed to May in numerous ways but I can see she sees the backstop as just about the only way to manage this and it does make a little sense . I still wait to see how any of it’ll work , nothing seems to resolve any of the actual issues that exist .

Thanks for the rational response.

The problem with the backstop from the Leave point of view is that it requires unilateral approval from EU (with no guarantee that such approval will be given and no time limit on the agreement) for UK to finally extract itself from EU. Imagine the leverage that EU will feel it gains from such a one sided 'agreement' and how it would try to squeeze every last drop out of UK - as Macron, for example, has already alluded to with the issue of fishing rights.

It leaves the door wide open for EU to trap us indefinitely and the backstop (even though it is sold 'only as an insurance policy') will never get the approval of Leave voters. I am not talking about ERG Leave voters but moderates who voted Leave.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I have worked with them on their "emerging technologies" and they have none.

They are about data and like the ad you linked points out analytics.

Do you know anything about Accenture or was it the first thing you found in google?

I worked for them for 6 years and did projects with them on other projects as a consultant i can tell you first hand thats all nonsense. What they are advertising is what they could do if someone gave them the chance. It's mainly waffle.

I have worked with and still work with two of leaders in emerging tec in the automation field and although their are ways to help a border or border type stuff no one has anything that would be ready to be used and it would take a year or two to get something working. As other have mentioned also its a big undertaking.

Your ignorance on this thread has been deafening you are out of your depth quite simply.

I visited the Dock last year and it was all a bit underwhelming. A lot of fluff but very little of real substance.

 

[Carl O'Ancelotti]

Whatever you say Mark.

Feel better now?

It's ok. I still understand.

I think I know where Cork is. Quite a few of my family are buried in St Oliver's.

There is no need at all for this patronising guff of a personal nature. Stick to the topic.

 

[RichardP]

The biggest driver of No Deal right now is the Remain Project Fear team so outrageously overplaying and exaggerating their hand that they are actually being ridiculed by the British public at large and, consequently, the British public is more and more in favour of no deal.

The following article was written by a prime mover in the Leave campaign earlier today. I won't disclose the author so you can judge it as impartially as possible.

Quote:


“‪Time and again the Brexit debate turns into a tribute to the wisdom of the British people – and their instinctive ability to sort fact from nonsense. Over the last few weeks, they have been bombarded with warnings of what could happen to this country in the event of a “no-deal Brexit” – otherwise known as coming out on World Trade terms.

‪In no particular order, it seems that Britain will run out of Mars bars and drinking water and ornamental horticulturists. There will be a desperate shortage of cheese and electricity and vital medicines such as Viagra. Our restaurants will lack cleaning staff. And tea. And carrots.‬

‪Our planes will be grounded – and if they do fly, our holidays will rocket in price. The public will be at greater risk from paedophiles and house prices will fall by 35 per cent, probably overnight. The threat to British chocolate supplies will endanger every Easter egg hunt in the land and – to judge by his tone – cause the Archbishop of Canterbury to cancel the festival of the Resurrection for the first time since Christianity was brought to these islands.‬

‪Across this darkening landscape we will see swarms of destitute expats expelled from their timeshares in Spain and mingling with untreated radiotherapy patients and criminals no longer in fear of the European Arrest Warrant. At checkpoints in every high street there will be troops to contain public unrest. The internet will pack up. Bins will go unemptied. There will be traffic jams at Dover and a serious shortage of fresh fruit on the Isle of Man.‬

‪For weeks the public have been regaled with this stuff – and yet an astonishing thing has happened: the grimmer the warnings, and the more systematic the efforts to make their flesh creep, the greater has been their indifference and their resolve. Of all the options suggested by pollsters – staying in the EU, coming out on Theresa May’s terms, or coming out on World Trade terms – it is the last, the so-called no-deal option, that is gaining in popularity. In spite of – or perhaps because of – everything they have been told, it is this future that is by some margin preferred by the British public”!

Un Quote

 

[RichardP]

There is no need at all for this patronising guff of a personal nature. Stick to the topic.

Ok Mark, sticking to the topic.

 

[Mutzo Nutzo]

The biggest driver of No Deal right now is the Remain Project Fear team so outrageously overplaying and exaggerating their hand that they are actually being ridiculed by the British public at large and, consequently, the British public is more and more in favour of no deal.

The following article was written by a prime mover in the Leave campaign earlier today. I won't disclose the author so you can judge it as impartially as possible.

Quote:


“‪Time and again the Brexit debate turns into a tribute to the wisdom of the British people – and their instinctive ability to sort fact from nonsense. Over the last few weeks, they have been bombarded with warnings of what could happen to this country in the event of a “no-deal Brexit” – otherwise known as coming out on World Trade terms.

‪In no particular order, it seems that Britain will run out of Mars bars and drinking water and ornamental horticulturists. There will be a desperate shortage of cheese and electricity and vital medicines such as Viagra. Our restaurants will lack cleaning staff. And tea. And carrots.‬

‪Our planes will be grounded – and if they do fly, our holidays will rocket in price. The public will be at greater risk from paedophiles and house prices will fall by 35 per cent, probably overnight. The threat to British chocolate supplies will endanger every Easter egg hunt in the land and – to judge by his tone – cause the Archbishop of Canterbury to cancel the festival of the Resurrection for the first time since Christianity was brought to these islands.‬

‪Across this darkening landscape we will see swarms of destitute expats expelled from their timeshares in Spain and mingling with untreated radiotherapy patients and criminals no longer in fear of the European Arrest Warrant. At checkpoints in every high street there will be troops to contain public unrest. The internet will pack up. Bins will go unemptied. There will be traffic jams at Dover and a serious shortage of fresh fruit on the Isle of Man.‬

‪For weeks the public have been regaled with this stuff – and yet an astonishing thing has happened: the grimmer the warnings, and the more systematic the efforts to make their flesh creep, the greater has been their indifference and their resolve. Of all the options suggested by pollsters – staying in the EU, coming out on Theresa May’s terms, or coming out on World Trade terms – it is the last, the so-called no-deal option, that is gaining in popularity. In spite of – or perhaps because of – everything they have been told, it is this future that is by some margin preferred by the British public”!

Un Quote

Oh dear that's a direct quote from Boris isn't it?

 

[Harryflashman]

Thanks for the rational response.

The problem with the backstop from the Leave point of view is that it requires unilateral approval from EU (with no guarantee that such approval will be given and no time limit on the agreement) for UK to finally extract itself from EU. Imagine the leverage that EU will feel it gains from such a one sided 'agreement' and how it would try to squeeze every last drop out of UK - as Macron, for example, has already alluded to with the issue of fishing rights.

It leaves the door wide open for EU to trap us indefinitely and the backstop (even though it is sold 'only as an insurance policy') will never get the approval of Leave voters. I am not talking about ERG Leave voters but moderates who voted Leave.

As I see it The problem is there is a solution , we’ve gone round in circles in this thread for ages in this topic exactly because of that . We have a border with what will be the EU , that an agreement says we can’t have a border with and Eu says we’d need one unless we join EEA or whatever (in transparency what I think would absolutely be the only way out of this ) . Even the famed WTO rules will leave us open to most favoured nation claims if there isn’t a border .

I’ve oft repeated myself to the point I know I’m dull, so apologies again , but how do we solve the ‘securing our borders ‘ mantra without a border ? We can have no restrictions on who enters the north and then no restrictions on who flies or ferries across to the mainland so in both cases unless Counter terrorism officers stumble across Eu travellers on arrival at a port we’ve no way of stopping it being an open border to the north of Ireland and the mainland . I cannot understand when securing our borders is apparently so important this isn’t an issue .

Travelling from the north of Ireland to the U.K mainland doesn’t allow ukba staff to be checking documents on arrival which is why if you’ve flown from Belfast or jumped a ferry you’ve not had your passport checked other than by those you’re travelling with to ensure it matches the booking ,G4s for the same reason and if you’re unfortunate CT officers on arrival . Unless we radically change the legislation we have no way of restricting entry and all the technology in the world isn’t going to help .

 

[Emlynsqueakyvoice]

You should repeat yourself until it sinks in Harry. The GFA and May's latest deal are incompatible. The only way it could work is if the DUP crackpots agree to what May signed up to in December 2017, namely a de facto border in the Irish Sea. Now that push has come to shove May has backed away from her commitment to assuage Foster, Paisley et al. She has gone to Europe time and time again to seek "assurances" that the EU won't keep UK in the EU indefinitely. Her problem is, and has been for a long time now, that "assurances" aren't worth the paper they aren't written on. Even the dimwits in the DUP are on to that one. The EU won't change their entire system to accommodate an exiting country, and it is ridiculous to think otherwise. She is merely reduced to playing with words now. An absolute disaster of a Prime Minister.

 

[RichardP]

You should repeat yourself until it sinks in Harry. The GFA and May's latest deal are incompatible. The only way it could work is if the DUP crackpots agree to what May signed up to in December 2017, namely a de facto border in the Irish Sea. Now that push has come to shove May has backed away from her commitment to assuage Foster, Paisley et al. She has gone to Europe time and time again to seek "assurances" that the EU won't keep UK in the EU indefinitely. Her problem is, and has been for a long time now, that "assurances" aren't worth the paper they aren't written on. Even the dimwits in the DUP are on to that one. The EU won't change their entire system to accommodate an exiting country, and it is ridiculous to think otherwise. She is merely reduced to playing with words now. An absolute disaster of a Prime Minister.

There is no doubt that May has made a monumental cock up of brexit. From calling the snap election which left her dependent on DUP support to her appalling dealings, allegedly on behalf of UK (though I do wonder), with EU she has slowly but surely painted herself into a corner.

But we are where we are and it is understandable to view the Irish border situation as akin to the irresistible force meeting the immovable object argument.

Taking a longer term view, I can see 2, not unlikely scenarios developing, either one of which would 100% solve the Irish border issue;

1- Reduced EU funding to Ireland due lack of UK EU subscription fees and several new, poorer, countries joining EU with associated redistribution (reduction) in subsidies to current net beneficiaries causes Ireland to review its own membership of EU.

2- A referendum for a united Ireland being held.

 

[RichardP]

Oh dear that's a direct quote from Boris isn't it?

Fairly obvious really, wasn't it!

It made me laugh, but it does actually represent, quite accurately, the mood of Joe Public at the moment. In summary, Project Fear is shooting itself in the foot.

 

[Harryflashman]

@RichardP , feel free to not answer the question I posed earlier but you do seem to have thrown yourself into and be enjoying the debate .

What’s your solution in relation to the Irish border as regards immigration , securing our borders seemed to be one of the biggest soundbites of the campaign so what’s the plan ?