Current Affairs Irish Border and Brexit

[RichardP]

@RichardP , feel free to not answer the question I posed earlier but you do seem to have thrown yourself into and be enjoying the debate .

What’s your solution in relation to the Irish border as regards immigration , securing our borders seemed to be one of the biggest soundbites of the campaign so what’s the plan ?

The plan will, hopefully, be implemented by people with more smarts than me and it may require a tweak to the GFA - not to the extent of a hard border of course and will be heavily reliant on technology. It does exist.

A simple analogy/background. I live in Dubai and I parked our car in a massive mall car park recently which was almost full. I obviously made a careful note of where I had parked so as to avoid any embarrassment later. When I came out of the mall there was a machine which I first thought was an ATM. However it was a 'car finder.' You type in 'as much of your car reg as you can remember' and within 3 seconds your car location is identified via cctv digital recognition of the plate and the location is displayed on the screen.

Now, if we can do that for cars, without installing tracking devices on the car, surely the same can be done with facial recognition technology for people via bio passport data base. I am not saying there won't be some logistical issues but it can be done. Those that say it can't are really saying that it won't imho.

 

[Harryflashman]

The plan will, hopefully, be implemented by people with more smarts than me and it may require a tweak to the GFA - not to the extent of a hard border of course and will be heavily reliant on technology. It does exist.

A simple analogy/background. I live in Dubai and I parked our car in a massive mall car park recently which was almost full. I obviously made a careful note of where I had parked so as to avoid any embarrassment later. When I came out of the mall there was a machine which I first thought was an ATM. However it was a 'car finder.' You type in 'as much of your car reg as you can remember' and within 3 seconds your car location is identified via cctv digital recognition of the plate and the location is displayed on the screen.

Now, if we can do that for cars, without installing tracking devices on the car, surely the same can be done with facial recognition technology for people via bio passport details. I am not saying there won't be some logistical issues but it can be done. Those that say it can't are really saying that it won't imho.

Ok I appreciate that but none of it’s an answer is it ? It’s like saying hopefully the lord Jesus will find a way , it’s way many of us think Brexiteers have a religious like belief .

Talking simply about people , if there isn’t a border people can cross . Eu citizens have a completely free right of entry into Ireland and then north . If there isn’t a border then those same people can travel from the north to the mainland because nobody can check their documents . If I’m honest I don’t see how anything you’ve posted alters that . We can’t check the identity documents of people travelling from Belfast to Liverpool because they’re travelling within the U.K. , no more than ukba can stop you an Euston . So how knowing where your car is in Dubai or facial recognition alters that for the life of me I’ve no idea .

 

[RichardP]

Ok I appreciate that but none of it’s an answer is it ? It’s like saying hopefully the lord Jesus will find a way , it’s way many of us think Brexiteers have a religious like belief .

Talking simply about people , if there isn’t a border people can cross . Eu citizens have a completely free right of entry into Ireland and then north . If there isn’t a border then those same people can travel from the north to the mainland because nobody can check their documents . If I’m honest I don’t see how anything you’ve posted alters that . We can’t check the identity documents of people travelling from Belfast to Liverpool because they’re travelling within the U.K. , no more than ukba can stop you an Euston . So how knowing where your car is in Dubai or facial recognition alters that for the life of me I’ve no idea .

Fair point. As you say, it doesn't stop people crossing the open border but it does allow identification of those that do so. Despite the fact that there is no border control they would still have entered the North (or the South) illegally if they did not have either a UK or Irish passport. Not wishing to belittle the scale of the task but, in essence, the principle is just the same as trying to walk out of a supermarket without paying for your shopping. Yes, you can do it but it sets the alarm off and Security then come running.

 

[Emlynsqueakyvoice]

But before all this we were where we were in regard to the border issue. Now we are were we are is exactly the same position. Shame on these Tories and Leave advocates for not dealing with this problem in the first place. The can was just kicked down the road and the people of Ireland were treated with the same contempt that the British have always treated them with. No amount of playing with words, either by our 'crack' negotiators or by people on here trusting goodwill and Google to get through a massive issue in these negotiations, will solve this. The Union goes or May goes here, no question.

 

[Mutzo Nutzo]

Fairly obvious really, wasn't it!

It made me laugh, but it does actually represent, quite accurately, the mood of Joe Public at the moment. In summary, Project Fear is shooting itself in the foot.

Au contraire - I don't personally believe a no deal situation will be allowed to happen. That leaves us with 2 options.

1. Accept May's mess of a deal
2. Cancel article 50 and we either go headlong into a general election, or straight into another referendum

This plot has a few twists and turns still to play out.

 

[RichardP]

But before all this we were where we were in regard to the border issue. Now we are were we are is exactly the same position. Shame on these Tories and Leave advocates for not dealing with this problem in the first place. The can was just kicked down the road and the people of Ireland were treated with the same contempt that the British have always treated them with. No amount of playing with words, either by our 'crack' negotiators or by people on here trusting goodwill and Google to get through a massive issue in these negotiations, will solve this. The Union goes or May goes here, no question.

It is not just the Irish people that have been treated with contempt by May. She has also treated the British with the same contempt. I agree with much of what you just wrote. My deal solution is May goes, No deal, WTO treaties with everyone and an open border with Ireland but with heavy duty surveillance to identify those crossing the border as described in my earlier post.

 

[Harryflashman]

Fair point. As you say, it doesn't stop people crossing the open border but it does allow identification of those that do so. Despite the fact that there is no border control they would still have entered the North (or the South) illegally if they did not have either a UK or Irish passport. Not wishing to belittle the scale of the task but, in essence, the principle is just the same as trying to walk out of a supermarket without paying for your shopping. Yes, you can do it but it sets the alarm off and Security then come running.

The whole thing about Brexit was ‘securing our borders’ so we’re only going to secure some of them , You can see how ridiculous that sounds surely ? Once they enter the U.K. , be that the north or the mainland, unless they try and claim benefits or come to police attention do you think we’re going to be detaining them in any number ?

 

[Mutzo Nutzo]

Fair point. As you say, it doesn't stop people crossing the open border but it does allow identification of those that do so. Despite the fact that there is no border control they would still have entered the North (or the South) illegally if they did not have either a UK or Irish passport. Not wishing to belittle the scale of the task but, in essence, the principle is just the same as trying to walk out of a supermarket without paying for your shopping. Yes, you can do it but it sets the alarm off and Security then come running.

That would indicate that there is a physical element to it. In the example you give the physical element would be the security staff. So in the context of a border there would still need to be

a/ barriers
b/ security staff

all of which cannot be replaced by blockchain, AI, Big Data or analytics. And also none of these physical elements would be acceptable to the Irish government

 

[RichardP]

Au contraire - I don't personally believe a no deal situation will be allowed to happen. That leaves us with 2 options.

1. Accept May's mess of a deal
2. Cancel article 50 and we either go headlong into a general election, or straight into another referendum

This plot has a few twists and turns still to play out.

I think you are right that there are a few twists and turns yet. The biggest factor, to be totally blunt, is that the will of Parliament is at odds with the will of the people. So, either Parliament believes in democracy and delivers the will of the people or it doesn't and it takes the consequences - and never mind the 'troubles' - that could take us back to the days of Cromwell.

 

[Carl O'Ancelotti]

I wonder who is going to pay for and monitor "heavy duty surveillance" for all 208 border crossings.

 

[RichardP]

That would indicate that there is a physical element to it. In the example you give the physical element would be the security staff. So in the context of a border there would still need to be

a/ barriers
b/ security staff

all of which cannot be replaced by blockchain, AI, Big Data or analytics. And also none of these physical elements would be acceptable to the Irish government

It would invariably be a fudge, yes. No borders as such, no gates etc, but heavy duty surveillance along the entire border with mobile units ready to respond.

 

[Harryflashman]

It is not just the Irish people that have been treated with contempt by May. She has also treated the British with the same contempt. I agree with much of what you just wrote. My deal solution is May goes, No deal, WTO treaties with everyone and an open border with Ireland but with heavy duty surveillance to identify those crossing the border as described in my earlier post.

You know under wto rules no Irish border means they’d likely be considered to have MFN status leaving us open to the ramifications of that meaning the U.K. government could be regularly fighting and losing in court

 

[RichardP]

You know under wto rules no Irish border means they’d likely be considered to have MFN status leaving us open to the ramifications of that meaning the U.K. government could be regularly fighting and losing in court

Yes, I do. And it would require someone with more negotiating ability than May to go to WTO and negotiate an agreement which recognises the unique situation that exists between Ireland and N Ireland.

 

[Harryflashman]

Yes, I do. And it would require someone with more negotiating ability than May to go to WTO and negotiate an agreement which recognises the unique situation that exists between Ireland and N Ireland.

To every nation in the wto ? So you expect them to change their rules to accommodate us , do you think that’s a likely outcome ?

 

[Harryflashman]

I wonder who is going to pay for and monitor "heavy duty surveillance" for all 208 border crossings.

We’ll have buckets of cash , We’ll be saving £350m a week aren’t we or was that just random figure to illustrate I struggle to keep up .