Current Affairs George Floyd and Minneapolis Unrest

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Pettifogger said:
Respectfully, that's not what I'm doing. I'm making the rather banal point that violent activity will lead to increased fear by the police and increased interactions between police and citizens, which will lead to incidents of police brutality. That's human nature. Perhaps in time, we can end trickle down legacies of the drug war and there will no longer be any reason for police to fear the people they're supposed to serve. But that time has not arrived. It's simply unrealistic to tell officers "hey, don't worry about those guys with guns who claim to want to hurt you."

If you think we can solve this problem entirely on the law enforcement side, I simply disagree. But I hope you can see how that isn't excusing police brutality.
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Respectfully you are. You're taking the victims of abuse and listing reasons why they deserve to be abused or why the abuse is unavoidable or whatever.

I mean look at that last sentence. The only way we can solve the problem of this group abusing this other group is to have both groups change their behavior. How is that different than saying victims of sexual assault should dress different, for example?
 
TheBigIguana said:
Respectfully you are. You're taking the victims of abuse and listing reasons why they deserve to be abused or why the abuse is unavoidable or whatever.

I mean look at that last sentence. The only way we can solve the problem of this group abusing this other group is to have both groups change their behavior. How is that different than saying victims of sexual assault should dress different, for example?
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"why they deserve to be abused" - No I'm not. And I've been very clear on it, which is why it's disturbing you'd make that claim.

I hate making affirmations when people are (perhaps intentionally) mischaracterizing my positions. But we had a good dialogue going, so for the sake of that -police abuse resulting from desensitization of police or prejudice or whatever is morally and legally wrong. That doesn't mean it's not predictable and likely to reoccur.

The reason your sexual assault example doesn't work is because we're not talking about victim and perpetrator. We're talking about victim (victim of brutality), perpetrator (cop), and other bad actor (those committing the violence in said cop's beat). I'm not claiming that victims of police brutality "had it coming". I'm stating that it's not realistic to expect cops to go into bad neighborhoods everyday and see people killed and see rapes and see people beat up and for them to still act like the angels who always make the right decision every time. It's just not going to happen.

I want police brutality to end, which is why pie in the sky "cops should just do better" isn't a compelling argument to me.
 
Groucho said:
Please clarify this, in a thread about police being arrested for murdering a man with video evidence.
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Because regularity implies more than one, more than isolated, more than rare. I hope that helps.

In return, will you please clarify whether you think Antifa in America are genuinely anti-fascist activists to be taken seriously?
 
verreauxi said:
Even a charitable reading suggests this is a racist post. In one swoop, Dandydan has managed to label all black people as the same, thereby delegitimizing their own individual identity (this is a common racist tactic: e.g., "all black people act the same; they are all "activists"; they are all thugs etc.) and then inverts this labeling by suggesting that some criminal black men are part of the very justice-oriented movement that seeks to rectify systematic racism. I see this all the time on the neo-nazi, white supremacist website stormfront.org; I believe it originated as a meme on the virulently racist Daily Stormer (links to wikipedia). Or you can click on this google image search link here (links to google image search page using "racist meme" "black lives matter" as search terms).
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Stormfront? Do you have myspace as well? Now stop with the dog whistle and post something relevant.
 
Pettifogger said:
"why they deserve to be abused" - No I'm not. And I've been very clear on it, which is why it's disturbing you'd make that claim.

I hate making affirmations when people are (perhaps intentionally) mischaracterizing my positions. But we had a good dialogue going, so for the sake of that -police abuse resulting from desensitization of police or prejudice or whatever is morally and legally wrong. That doesn't mean it's not predictable and likely to reoccur.

The reason your sexual assault example doesn't work is because we're not talking about victim and perpetrator. We're talking about victim (victim of brutality), perpetrator (cop), and other bad actor (those committing the violence in said cop's beat). I'm not claiming that victims of police brutality "had it coming". I'm stating that it's not realistic to expect cops to go into bad neighborhoods everyday and see people killed and see rapes and see people beat up and for them to still act like the angels who always make the right decision every time. It's just not going to happen.

I want police brutality to end, which is why pie in the sky "cops should just do better" isn't a compelling argument to me.
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They can switch on their damn body cameras in the middle of a police brutality protest for a start
 
Pettifogger said:
Because regularity implies more than one, more than isolated, more than rare. I hope that helps.

In return, will you please clarify whether you think Antifa in America are genuinely anti-fascist activists to be taken seriously?
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We’ve seen that this isn’t an isolated incident over the years so regulatory is justified. I’m sure the vast majority of police are good people, but they have to root out the bad ‘uns and quick.

As for being anti facist, yes I’m happy to state that I, like most sensible folk, am anti-fascist.

As for what is happening regarding that in America, perhaps if there wasn’t such a racist problem then there wouldn’t be such a need for anti-fascism groups.

But then I’ve lived in Liverpoolshire my whole life.
 
Groucho said:
As for what is happening regarding that in America, perhaps if there wasn’t such a racist problem then there wouldn’t be such a need for anti-fascism groups.
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Is the implication here that Antifa groups in America are actually combating racism (and/or facism)? I don't think you believe that, and I believe that is why you're framing your response like this.
 
Pettifogger said:
Is the implication here that Antifa groups in America are actually combating racism (and/or facism)? I don't think you believe that, and I believe that is why you're framing your response like this.
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You believe what you like pal, I’m not American so here in the UK, our anti fascism groups are engaged in fighting fascism.

If that’s different in America I wouldn’t know. Unless it’s cool to suggest that anti fascism is a bad thing in order to justify racism. In which case that’s abhorrent.
 
Groucho said:
You believe what you like pal, I’m not American so here in the UK, our anti fascism groups are engaged in fighting fascism.

If that’s different in America I wouldn’t know. Unless it’s cool to suggest that anti fascism is a bad thing in order to justify racism. In which case that’s abhorrent.
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I acknowledge our groups could differ. I have no idea what anti-fascism groups are like in the UK/Europe.

Not that you'll take my word for it, but I think if you reviewed the litany of evidence on Antifa groups in America, you'd conclude that they're doing very little if anything to combat racism or fascism.
 
Pettifogger said:
I acknowledge our groups could differ. I have no idea what anti-fascism groups are like in the UK/Europe.

Not that you'll take my word for it, but I think if you reviewed the litany of evidence on Antifa groups in America, you'd conclude that they're doing very little if anything to combat racism or fascism.
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So what is your view on Mr Floyd?

Hopefully you’ll agree that the men responsible should be tried.
 
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