Current Affairs George Floyd and Minneapolis Unrest

[Jebus_lives]

Yeah, but as mentioned, it's not like I'm cherrypicking that measure to serve my ends. "Unarmed black men" is a frequent measure used by BLM.

Crime statistics are usually records of policing, not crimes. Records of reported crime are records of victims who contact the police. Both aren't usually good measures.

id add that the stats don't exist in a vacuum. There are very high profile instances where despite what appear to be very clear examples of police brutality where the access to and administration of justice seem to further disadvantage black people.

 

[ForeverBlue92]

Agree with you on magic fix.

But while I know I'm in the extreme minority re: guns on this board, I think America has fundamental violence issues that aren't simply the result of having guns around. For this conversation I'll accept the idea that guns lead to higher violence, but I don't think that comes close to bridging the gap.

Im not anti gun as one of my cousins owns a shotgun here in the UK but the laws put in place keep them out of the wrong hands very well.

Other countries like Canada and Germany dont have very strict gun laws but they have much less gun crime - the US seems to have a fascination with violence - from live footage of high speed chases and filming of killers in court your media glamourises mass killers and wonders why teens wanting 15 minutes of fame end up shooting their school up.

It isnt the guns per say but the society they are so easily available in which for me is a big reason why cops over there seem so tense and trigger happy - must be edgy as hell being called out to a domestic incident or to tackle some gang member in a high crime estate.

 

[Pettifogger]

The problem is that a lot of the inner city cops have taken on the mentality of warriors going out every day to fight an enemy. The brutality stems from that attitude and while the citizens maybe are a bit hostile, it is far more a problem of the police going over the top to take on the enemy that they're supposed to be serving. The whole mentality is a mess and that has to change. It's a police problem.

I don't think I disagree about the mentality needing to change. But I think we both know the challenges that will come practically.

I mean, a lot of the cities have legitimately horrendous crime. And I have trouble saying "you guys need to think about serving these folks instead of warring against them." Make no mistake, I agree that's how it should work, but I also know that's really easy for me to say sitting in my office without putting my life on the line.

If you're saying it's exclusively a police problem, I disagree. I don't think there is any training, hiring, etc. we can do that will keep police in those areas from becoming jaded and keep them going out day after day into environments where they're hated and threatened. I don't think any amount of good hiring, higher pay, etc. can overcome that human nature. So at least some of the change has to be from us (citizenry).

 

[davek]

These protests concern me on two levels: first, the fact that the fight against Covid19 is weakened by it - how could it not, look at the breakdown of social distancing; second, it plays right into Trump's hands to make law and order a defining issue of the 2020 election rather than his woeful handling of the crisis.

Protesting police violence is to be commended, but it's job done on that score, and carrying this on will only undermine the fight against Covid19 and Trump.

 

[Pettifogger]

Im not anti gun as one of my cousins owns a shotgun here in the UK but the laws put in place keep them out of the wrong hands very well.

Other countries like Canada and Germany dont have very strict gun laws but they have much less gun crime - the US seems to have a fascination with violence - from live footage of high speed chases and filming of killers in court your media glamourises mass killers and wonders why teens wanting 15 minutes of fame end up shooting their school up.

It isnt the guns per say but the society they are so easily available in which for me is a big reason why cops over there seem so tense and trigger happy - must be edgy as hell being called out to a domestic incident or to tackle some gang member in a high crime estate.

Yeah I agree that even if guns aren't causing the violence, the amount of guns probably does contribute to police apprehension.

 

[peteblue]

Whatabouterry springs eternal when someone's scrabbling to discredit valid political movements.

No one is trying to discredit anything unless you are referring to the CCP. As always you manage to grab hold of the wrong end of the stick......

 

[LinekersLegs]

At first glance this does not sound like a guy who was likely to have been the shooter. Arne’t police rules of engagment for firing that you have a clear view of who you are shooting at so you don’t hit innocents?

A Beloved BBQ Chef Who Fed Police For Free Was Fatally Shot After Louisville Authorities "Returned Fire" At A Crowd

David McAtee was a popular barbecue chef in the community who often used to feed police officers for free.

www.buzzfeednews.com

Conrad said that as officers and soldiers were working to clear the lot, they were "shot at." Both LMPD officers and the national guard units "returned fire," killing a man at the scene, Conrad said.

Authorities have not yet identified the victim or the law enforcement officers who killed the man. They also did not say if the man killed was the person they suspected of opening fire at police and national guard members.

However, family members told two local news outlets the man was David McAtee, the beloved chef and owner of a popular barbecue joint located next to the Dino's Food Mart.,Metro Council President David James also confirmed to BuzzFeed News that his longtime friend McAtee was the one who was killed.

McAtee, 53, was known to donate his time and food for several community events. He also used to feed police officers for free. "He liked the police," James told BuzzFeed News. "He used to give the police free food while they were working. He talked to them all the time."

 

[TheBigIguana]

I don't think I disagree about the mentality needing to change. But I think we both know the challenges that will come practically.

I mean, a lot of the cities have legitimately horrendous crime. And I have trouble saying "you guys need to think about serving these folks instead of warring against them." Make no mistake, I agree that's how it should work, but I also know that's really easy for me to say sitting in my office without putting my life on the line.

If you're saying it's exclusively a police problem, I disagree. I don't think there is any training, hiring, etc. we can do that will keep police in those areas from becoming jaded and keep them going out day after day into environments where they're hated and threatened. I don't think any amount of good hiring, higher pay, etc. can overcome that human nature. So at least some of the change has to be from us (citizenry).

I don't agree with that. The people vs police nature came about because of the WAR on drugs, and that was a government and policing decision. The citizens did nothing to cause that kind of reaction and that is where the mentality originates. It is wholly up to the police to rectify it. The citizens reaction to basically having hostile forces in their cities has been understandable and honestly reserved imo. They should've been burning it down years ago.

 

[Pettifogger]

I don't agree with that. The people vs police nature came about because of the WAR on drugs, and that was a government and policing decision. The citizens did nothing to cause that kind of reaction and that is where the mentality originates. It is wholly up to the police to rectify it. The citizens reaction to basically having hostile forces in their cities has been understandable and honestly reserved imo. They should've been burning it down years ago.

I might be inclined to agree with some of this in an academic sense. But I don't think it really helps us.

I mean the simple fact is that inner cities have lots of needless crime. You and I can talk about the origins, but if we agree that policing is still required (it is) then we have to discuss how that can occur in a way that doesn't result in brutality.

I'm in favor of higher standards for police, punishment for bad officers, etc. etc. But that alone won't change the reality that at least for some length of time, cops will be in high violence neighborhoods. I'd love to find the perfect people who can take that abuse and witness the violence and still go about their job looking at citizens to be protected rather than feared, but do you really think that's realistic?

 

[TheBigIguana]

I might be inclined to agree with some of this in an academic sense. But I don't think it really helps us.

I mean the simple fact is that inner cities have lots of needless crime. You and I can talk about the origins, but if we agree that policing is still required (it is) then we have to discuss how that can occur in a way that doesn't result in brutality.

I'm in favor of higher standards for police, punishment for bad officers, etc. etc. But that alone won't change the reality that at least for some length of time, cops will be in high violence neighborhoods. I'd love to find the perfect people who can take that abuse and witness the violence and still go about their job looking at citizens to be protected rather than feared, but do you really think that's realistic?

What you're essentially doing here is both sidesing police abuse. Yes crime is rampant in parts of the US and policing it is a dangerous job, but that doesn't mean jacking someone up because they're standing on a street corner or harassing people going about their business is acceptable. And that's before you get into the straight up illegal stuff that the cops will regularly do in some cities.

Do I think it is realistic for the police to stop looking at the people in their jurisdictions as an enemy? Yeah, I do.

 

[Mutzo Nutzo]

From an outsiders POV I have spent a fair bit of time in St Louis.

One day a friend of mine took me on a trip to the top of the gateway arch. At the top you get a great view of the city and surrounding terrain, to my left I could see the City Center, very modern, high tech (lots of shiny buildings) even the drive into St Louis vis Town and Country showed a high level of wealth and affluence.
What struck me though, standing at the top of the tower was the complete desolation on the other bank of the Mississippi River, it was like it had been carpet bombed.

My friend said that it was a bad neighbourhood, mainly blacks and Hispanics and there was always a lot of trouble there.

I replied that if I had to live in that environment then I deffo would be kicking off.

There is a huge divide in the US between the haves and the have nots and it’s mainly blacks who make up the majority of the have nots. American society IMO is broken, fix that and you will no longer have incidents of white cops killing blacks, riots looting and other bad stuff.

 

[Pettifogger]

What you're essentially doing here is both sidesing police abuse. Yes crime is rampant in parts of the US and policing it is a dangerous job, but that doesn't mean jacking someone up because they're standing on a street corner or harassing people going about their business is acceptable. And that's before you get into the straight up illegal stuff that the cops will regularly do in some cities.

Do I think it is realistic for the police to stop looking at the people in their jurisdictions as an enemy? Yeah, I do.

Respectfully, that's not what I'm doing. I'm making the rather banal point that violent activity will lead to increased fear by the police and increased interactions between police and citizens, which will lead to incidents of police brutality. That's human nature. Perhaps in time, we can end trickle down legacies of the drug war and there will no longer be any reason for police to fear the people they're supposed to serve. But that time has not arrived. It's simply unrealistic to tell officers "hey, don't worry about those guys with guns who claim to want to hurt you."

If you think we can solve this problem entirely on the law enforcement side, I simply disagree. But I hope you can see how that isn't excusing police brutality.

 

[LinekersLegs]

Minnesota AG says 4 officers will be charged to 'highest degree of accountability'

Keith Ellison stressed that rushing the investigation would not be effective in the long run because he wants to assure he cannot be accused of missing or overlooking any evidence.

www.nbcnews.com

Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison, who has been appointed to lead the prosecution of any cases arising from the death of George Floyd, said he plans to charge the four officers involved to "the highest degree of accountability that the law and the facts will support."

Former Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin, who pinned Floyd's neck to the ground with his knee before Floyd died, is charged with third-degree murder and second-degree manslaughterin Floyd's death on May 25.
The three other officers involved in the incident have not been charged. Ellison said on MSNBC that he is not prepared to say whether Chauvin should face greater charges."We are reviewing the evidence, and we are reviewing the law, and we are going to charge this case in a manner consistent with the highest level of accountability that the facts and the law will support," Ellison said.

Determining potential charges for the other officers, Thomas Lane, Tou Thao and J. Alexander Kueng, will be met with a "similar" process, Ellison said.Ellison, a Democrat who represented Minneapolis in Congress from 2007 to 2019, stressed that rushing the investigation would not be effective in the long run because he wants to assure he cannot be accused of missing or overlooking any evidence.

"It is essential that this prosecution is viewed as just and fair. I don't want to have to defend this prosecution from false accusations of rush to judgement or pressure by the public," he said. "We are reviewing all of the evidence. The public knows some things about the other officers, but there's a whole body of evidence that we're still reviewing and so we have to make sure that we look at the facts and the law.""This is justice. We're going on justice and that's what we're going to do," Ellison added. "I know that people are frustrated by the pacing, but I want to assure them that as a person who has dedicated my whole life to civil rights and justice, I am going to pursue justice vigorously, relentlessly, uncompromisingly."

 

[Pettifogger]

Being as objective as I can from a legal perspective, I don't see how putting Ellison in charge is a wise move.

 

[LinekersLegs]

Edit he’d already announced his retirement so being fired doesn’t mean much unless it impacts his pension.

'Turmoil and shambles': LMPD's chief departure cheered, even if it won't fix everything

Critics applauded Chief Steve Conrad's departure from Louisville Metro Police, but some warn it won't solve all of Louisville's problems.

www.courier-journal.com