Everton: we look an unhappy camp

[Elong]

"The Passionistas".

Crying

 

[neil999]

I dont like what I hear of his attitude.

he just needs a hug and a home cooked meal

 

[davek]

“Depay walks around like he has won 10 European Cups. This attitude … what’s it all about?” - Ronald Koeman

...now he's changed his tune significantly.

 

[whiteshadow]

But this is where you end up proving your own argument wrong. Enner Valencia is an international striker who has a decent scoring record at that level, and has scored at a World Cup and Copa America, while Tom Cleverley has 13 England caps and a Premier League winners medal. The majority of the young lads we have at the moment will do well to make a career playing for Doncaster, Rochdale and Mansfield.

That's not me being harsh, it's just the truth. I remember Moyes being badgered to play Baxter, McAleny and Duffy. Where are they now? Not tearing up the premier league that's for sure.

The Premier League is an unforgiving place for young players, and the fact that we don't think international players are good enough for us tells you just how good you have to be to make it at the top. Hopefully one or two of this crop will turn out to be like Barkley and Rooney, but the vast majority will never reach the level of Osman, Hibbert and Anichebe (3 players most fans claim weren't good enough for Everton) and that's talking about their entire career nevermind right now.

Valencia is a poor player.

Let's have a look at the countries he's scored against at 'international' level.

Honduras 2
Switzerland 1
England 1
Mexico 1
Paraguay 1
Peru 1
Haiti 1
Bolivia 3
Venezeula 1

Arguably the best team he has scored against is us and we suck.

Looking at where he's played a 'higher' level of football his stats don't look so impressive. Since he's played at West Ham, which is the only significant level he's played at his record is ..

Apps 54 Goals 8 in the Premier League.

It's not god awful but it's not impressive either. Put it this way when you consider the fact Anichebe has scored more goals in one season in the Premier League than Valencia has you should reconsider a players merits just because they happen to be an 'international' player for a country that doesn't play many strong nations.

Cleverley was never a key player in that United team. He's good technically but doesn't drive teams forward with his passing and vision, isn't pacey and isn't great defensively. He's one of those players who is competent at everything but a master of nothing. He doesn't excel in any one area and that's why his career has stalled since he left United. Take a decent but limited player out of a great team and they look pretty average, which is what he's looked since he's played for us. Earning a Premier League winners medal doesn't make you an outstanding player in itself, he's clearly not one of the key reasons why United won that season.

 

[Goat]

...now he's changed his tune significantly.

Did you cheer when Jags sliced Sigi in half David?

 

[Lanolin]

Valencia is a poor player.

Let's have a look at the countries he's scored against at 'international' level.

Honduras 2
Switzerland 1
England 1
Mexico 1
Paraguay 1
Peru 1
Haiti 1
Bolivia 3
Venezeula 1

Arguably the best team he has scored against is us and we suck.

Looking at where he's played a 'higher' level of football his stats don't look so impressive. Since he's played at West Ham, which is the only significant level he's played at his record is ..

Apps 54 Goals 8 in the Premier League.

It's not god awful but it's not impressive either. Put it this way when you consider the fact Anichebe has scored more goals in one season in the Premier League than Valencia has you should reconsider a players merits just because they happen to be an 'international' player for a country that doesn't play many strong nations.

Cleverley was never a key player in that United team. He's good technically but doesn't drive teams forward with his passing and vision, isn't pacey and isn't great defensively. He's one of those players who is competent at everything but a master of nothing. He doesn't excel in any one area and that's why his career has stalled since he left United. Take a decent but limited player out of a great team and they look pretty average, which is what he's looked since he's played for us. Earning a Premier Leauge winners medal doesn't make you an outstanding player in itself, he's clearly not one of the key reasons why United won that season.

You're missing the point entirely. I know they're not outstanding players - that's exactly what I'm saying to you.

You can downplay someone playing for the nation ranked 19th in the world - and the fact that they've scored against 3 other teams ranked in the top 20 - all you like. You can also downplay the fact that a player has won a premier league title and played in the CL. But the very simple fact is both of them are better players than the huge majority of our youth sides will ever be. That's not a criticism, and there's no shame in it, but if 3 or 4 of our young players go on to even play 54 games in the PL, they will have done very well for themselves.

*Edited to laugh at you suggesting playing for a team who has 5 of the world's top 10 in their tournament qualifying group doesn't play many good teams.

 

[whiteshadow]

You're missing the point entirely. I know they're not outstanding players - that's exactly what I'm saying to you.

You can downplay someone playing for the nation ranked 19th in the world - and the fact that they've scored against 3 other teams ranked in the top 20 - all you like. You can also downplay the fact that a player has won a premier league title and played in the CL. But the very simple fact is both of them are better players than the huge majority of our youth sides will ever be. That's not a criticism, and there's no shame in it, but if 3 or 4 of our young players go on to even play 54 games in the PL, they will have done very well for themselves.

*Edited to laugh at you suggesting playing for a team who has 5 of the world's top 10 in their tournament qualifying group doesn't play many good teams.

Before you laugh too hard notice how none of his goals are against any of them.

I get the point you're making. I think the point I'm making that you don't get is you don't only need skill to make it, you need opportunity at a young age. Some managers are really good at that but most are too scared to take any risks because of the intense pressure they're under to get results. It's far easier to play an international player and let the blame fall on the player than to have courage in your own convictions and give a young player a chance.

People go on about these extensive scouting networks and how good they are and how if someone is talented enough they'll make it, yet how did scouts from all the Premier League teams miss a player like Vardy when he was a young player?

If it was that easy to spot talented players and know, with conviction, that they were good enough to play top level football players like Vardy would never be overlooked in the first place. That's why it's important to give young players a chance to show wether they are good enough or not. It's not always easy for a manager to decide how good a player can be without giving them a chance at senior level.

It's rare that players come along that are so talented they stand out a level above other players but that doesn't mean there aren't players that are good enough to play premier league football if given the chance to play and develop their game at a decent age.

I do find it ironic that you have so much faith in a player who scored less goals than Arouna Kone last season. I'm glad you'll be happy that we have a classy 'international' striker to play in Lukaku's place if he gets injured long term.

Personally I'll be worried if we have to rely on Valencia for goals.

 

[davek]

Did you cheer when Jags sliced Sigi in half David?

Ha Ha. Last time I cheered for him was when the galoot was benched after the City game.

 

[Slippin Jimmy]

Playing and praising the old guard way too much for me. I wouldn't bet against both Jagielka and Baines continuing to be first team starters come the end of this season.

I think he knows Jags is past it hence the substitution, Koeman knows as well as we all do that most of these players are crap that's why he's been calling out the board to start acting like a top club and spending money on quality players but like you I'm not impressed with the type of players he's been going after

 

[bcblue1878]

He's got you on ignore mate so best of luck with that.

Along with many others!

 

[bcblue1878]

Don't know if the forum be able to handle the fume if we lose to The Saints.

I almost get the feeling that there's at least two out there who want us to lose Sunday! It'll suit their own particular agenda, and they'll be all over it like a rash if we do!

 

[ianefc]

I almost get the feeling that there's at least two out there who want us to lose Sunday! It'll suit their own particular agenda, and they'll be all over it like a rash if we do!

Yep

 

[Goat]

I almost get the feeling that there's at least two out there who want us to lose Sunday! It'll suit their own particular agenda, and they'll be all over it like a rash if we do!

Two???

Theres a good 15 at least that are gonna be praying they have plenty to moan about Sunday night.

 

[Goat]

Even if we win they will find something.

 

[ianefc]

Even if we win they will find something.

I think you may be on to something here. This was Dave's entire contribution to the Sunderland game thread from a few weeks ago

5 posts.