Everton: we look an unhappy camp

[davek]

I think the reality mate is that, apart from the top teams and the relegation fodder, most teams blow hot and cold.

That's due to a combination of confidence, coaching and luck. To break out of that group you need a set of players who are mentally strong and have an almost unshakeable confidence in their own ability ( even if they don't have massive ability ). It'll be Koeman's task to instill that belief in his current squad or replace them.

In the meantime, chances are we'll hit a bit of form when it's least expected and confidence will grow, but the mentally weak in the squad heads will drop at some point and then we'll have another bad run.

We have some good, talented players, but many of them lack true self belief.

You can see with signings like Bolasie what Koeman wants. He's strong, works hard and is almost overly self confident.

I shudder at Koeman's preferred signings. Bolasie is an overspend by about £20M and should be a sub in any decent Everton team; he wanted to throw £30M at a pudding like Sissoko and now he's keen on a waster like Depay for another fortune no doubt. Hopefully Walsh is on his game now and providing quality cheaper alternatives to rubbish like that to save Koeman from himself.

 

[Zatara]

I shudder at Koeman's preferred signings. Bolasie is an overspend by about £20M and should be a sub in any decent Everton team; he wanted to throw £30M at a pudding like Sissoko and now he's keen on a waster like Depay for another fortune no doubt. Hopefully Walsh is on his game now and providing quality cheaper alternatives to rubbish like that to save Koeman from himself.

Agree generally with this but Depay was rated very highly before he joined united with some well respected coaches believing he could be the future best in the world.

He then had LVG as a manager...

 

[brieverton]

When many of the first teamers are being played and coming up short, week after week, I'd say you haven't got much to lose.

Maybe some of the youngsters aren't all that, maybe some are. All I do know is managers and scouts make wrong judgement calls on players often. Just because a manager, scout is a professional doesn't mean they'll always call it right on young players. Trusting in their judgement blindy without forming your own opinion is just blind faith.

It's like people arguing that Martinez must know more than all the fans last year because he's a manager and they're not. He obviously didn't know more than most fans as he kept on making the same mistakes.

RK has to make his own choices, which he is. If he lost vs Swansea he'd get stick wether he played experienced or young players. I'd say I find it hard to believe that our youth team hasn't got a better striker than Valencia or a midfielder who excels in at least one area of his game, which is more than what Cleverly adds to the team.

All about opinions but I really don't think we've got much to lose by trying 1 or 2 youngsters at times and we may even discover a diamond.

I agree, the modern game has too much of an extended weeding-out phase for younger players which breeds this ultra cautious approach. Short-term managers don't help either. Koeman was right rejecting Barkley as being "young" at almost 23 which is ridiculous.

Younger aged players are still worth trying in the right circumstances. Nobody is asking for the side to be made up of 3 or 4 untested young players at any given time. Davies I thought would have been worth a go last Saturday as Kieran Dowell would have been too. Particularly when many other players are just consistently average and/or always seem to fail to take an opportunity when introduced.

 

[davek]

Agree generally with this but Depay was rated very highly before he joined united with some well respected coaches believing he could be the future best in the world.

He then had LVG as a manager...

I dont like what I hear of his attitude.

 

[Woolly Blue]

I shudder at Koeman's preferred signings. Bolasie is an overspend by about £20M and should be a sub in any decent Everton team; he wanted to throw £30M at a pudding like Sissoko and now he's keen on a waster like Depay for another fortune no doubt. Hopefully Walsh is on his game now and providing quality cheaper alternatives to rubbish like that to save Koeman from himself.

Sissoko pudding sounds like some trendy new dessert for hipsters.

 

[brieverton]

I dont like what I hear of his attitude.

I don't like it either. I wonder though, if things are still difficult in attracting names, that we might see a lowering of the standards in character that we seem to have set for ourselves over time.

Needs must, and all that.

 

[Papa Shango]

I don't like it either. I wonder though, if things are still difficult in attracting names, that we might see a lowering of the standards in character that we seem to have set for ourselves over time.

Needs must, and all that.

We shouldnt worry about attracting names.

Just identify and attract good players, they are out there. Any names we could attract would be here for one thing and one thing only.

 

[Thomasc]

The reality is that neither you or anyone else is this thread has a proper understanding of how good the youngsters are or if they are actually ready for PL football. This is why we have hundreds of scouts and backroom staff assessing their performances and feeding information through.

When youngsters are not getting first team football they are everyone's answer to the problems. When they do play and come up short, the manager gets the blame for not playing experienced players.

In all honesty, if RK had played some of the youngsters this last weekend he would have been criticized as Swansea should be cannon-fodder, to be picked off by our experienced pros.

Well I can't disagree with that obviously. Some of them have already been blooded already though, so must have been deemed worthy of a call up. So my point I am guessing is that if they are on the cusp, I would rather throw them in than some of the dross Martinez bought as they are only going to get experience from it. But, like you said, if it goes tits, it's the manager who cops it for playing them.

 

[Slippin Jimmy]

A solitary win since September 17th. Manager looking less than a great fit, personality wise, and making a lot of off the cuff comments. A team now looking like it's lost the plot.

I look across the first team and bench and see cause for concern: a GK who knows he's under scrutiny; a captain who looks like he's lost discipline on and off the pitch; the ongoing festering boil that is the McCarthy situation; Lukaku making it known he's relieved on international duty to be playing with players up and around him; Mirallas and Deulofeu looking like they are bit part players and heading for the door; Barkley finding himself the unwanted centre of attention and target for the media.

The team have been questioned again this week about their intensity by Koeman - who also let slip midweek he hoped for four replacements for them in January. Next up is a tough grudge match away to S'ton whose players will be fired up and then 5 tough games on the spin after that culminating on Boxing Day away to Leicester. I cant see the type of fight here with this team that we could envisage picking up more than 5 points. The lack of reaction after the Chelsea mauling was shocking, and that's the best chance we'll have of nailed on three points out the window for some time to come. I hope in private they're sorting this out and that the manager is accepting that he too needs to up his game, because that dressing room can be pretty volatile. Once its lost it's lost for good. They dont do it in public, they make the anodyne comments - all the right noises about doing their 'level best' and 'dont know where it's going wrong' etc, but they know how to 'work to rule' and slip into a crisis mode very quickly.

This upcoming Southampton game will be enormous IMO.

Agree with that Dave and i'm happy to see that Koeman will not stand for the players who you admitted many times the last couple of seasons who let Martinez down badly, I want them out the door pronto and Koeman is the man who will do that no matter what people say, roll on January

 

[Zatara]

I dont like what I hear of his attitude.

“Depay walks around like he has won 10 European Cups. This attitude … what’s it all about?” - Ronald Koeman

 

[brieverton]

Either way I think the period from now to next August will tell us exactly how things will unfold.

We will see the intent of the club as regards investment in the squad and if they have fixed the problems from August.

I can see Koeman being as equally honest with that aspect if things don't go to plan as he has been in other areas.

For him and Moshiri there will be no hiding places in quite a short period of time.

 

[Efcjake]

What would that be? Play pretty much the same way as Marinez, Same formation, Same approach bar the passing around at the back

He's come in and changed nothing, We still don't press, We still look weak in defence and we don't look motivated

I'm in the same boat here.

We're about 3 months in to his tenure here and I'm struggling to pick up on how the team's style of play has changed.

I'm getting really, really tired of seeing two defensive midfielders failing to offer anything to the team going forward and failing to provide adequate protection for the defenders.

Jagielka in recent games appears to have decided to take on the mantle of "one mistake per game at least" from Stones and Funes Mori last year. Stekelenburg bar a couple of impressive performances has almost replaced the shakiness of Joel and Howard last year.

Going forward we still look lost and without a plan. Players are not putting in the required amount of effort, heads go down when we concede still.

After 3 months and 4 new players in the team it just looks like he's attempted to put some plasters on a leaky pipe. The root problems have not been addressed and the same problems we had last year appear to still be here but are now affecting different players.

Slowly, but surely, I am learning to despise this 4-2-3-1 formation as much as I despised the 4-5-1 at times under Moyes.

After this last month, I can say I don't see any notable improvements to the team.

 

[Lanolin]

When many of the first teamers are being played and coming up short, week after week, I'd say you haven't got much to lose.

Maybe some of the youngsters aren't all that, maybe some are. All I do know is managers and scouts make wrong judgement calls on players often. Just because a manager, scout is a professional doesn't mean they'll always call it right on young players. Trusting in their judgement blindy without forming your own opinion is just blind faith.

It's like people arguing that Martinez must know more than all the fans last year because he's a manager and they're not. He obviously didn't know more than most fans as he kept on making the same mistakes.

RK has to make his own choices, which he is. If he lost vs Swansea he'd get stick wether he played experienced or young players. I'd say I find it hard to believe that our youth team hasn't got a better striker than Valencia or a midfielder who excels in at least one area of his game, which is more than what Cleverly adds to the team.

All about opinions but I really don't think we've got much to lose by trying 1 or 2 youngsters at times and we may even discover a diamond.

But this is where you end up proving your own argument wrong. Enner Valencia is an international striker who has a decent scoring record at that level, and has scored at a World Cup and Copa America, while Tom Cleverley has 13 England caps and a Premier League winners medal. The majority of the young lads we have at the moment will do well to make a career playing for Doncaster, Rochdale and Mansfield.

That's not me being harsh, it's just the truth. I remember Moyes being badgered to play Baxter, McAleny and Duffy. Where are they now? Not tearing up the premier league that's for sure.

The Premier League is an unforgiving place for young players, and the fact that we don't think international players are good enough for us tells you just how good you have to be to make it at the top. Hopefully one or two of this crop will turn out to be like Barkley and Rooney, but the vast majority will never reach the level of Osman, Hibbert and Anichebe (3 players most fans claim weren't good enough for Everton) and that's talking about their entire career nevermind right now.

 

[joseph]

When many of the first teamers are being played and coming up short, week after week, I'd say you haven't got much to lose.

Maybe some of the youngsters aren't all that, maybe some are. All I do know is managers and scouts make wrong judgement calls on players often. Just because a manager, scout is a professional doesn't mean they'll always call it right on young players. Trusting in their judgement blindy without forming your own opinion is just blind faith.

It's like people arguing that Martinez must know more than all the fans last year because he's a manager and they're not. He obviously didn't know more than most fans as he kept on making the same mistakes.

RK has to make his own choices, which he is. If he lost vs Swansea he'd get stick wether he played experienced or young players. I'd say I find it hard to believe that our youth team hasn't got a better striker than Valencia or a midfielder who excels in at least one area of his game, which is more than what Cleverly adds to the team.

All about opinions but I really don't think we've got much to lose by trying 1 or 2 youngsters at times and we may even discover a diamond.

Yeah, I'll go with that You never know until you try. There might be a revelation or two in there, or they might fall short.....but it's worth a shot.

 

[davek]

Agree with that Dave and i'm happy to see that Koeman will not stand for the players who you admitted many times the last couple of seasons who let Martinez down badly, I want them out the door pronto and Koeman is the man who will do that no matter what people say, roll on January

Playing and praising the old guard way too much for me. I wouldn't bet against both Jagielka and Baines continuing to be first team starters come the end of this season.