Everton and Martinez are to blame should Lukaku leave

[davek]

Dave, I've answered every single point you've raised - but I'll do it again:



"The "great platform" you mention was Moyes' legacy" - 2 minutes 40 seconds, Martinez words not mine.

"Was he remotely ever being shuffled to the exit for failing to land the CL spots on a regular basis?" Ambitions were lower, the glass ceiling was wholly intact and the squad of a lower quality than we currently have. The Board had no ambition other than 40 points -something I have spoken about in the past and has been acknowledged on national media.

"Martinez progression" - yes in the first year, no in the second year (benefit of the doubt was given as 2nd year syndrome), no in the third year (poor results, lack of tactical progression and ability to change course of games)

"Squad" please re-read my earlier comments - good enough for CL qualification this year but to maintain relative position and progress as described needs significant restructuring.

"The opposite case can more persuasively made that the churn is a result of many teams now being capable of mounting a challenge for top four places in the new financial reality, which has occurred in tandem with loss of form amongst the usual cash doped elite" How you can justify this current squad at Everton not being in the mix is frankly beyond me when you see the achievements of Leicester, Spurs and West Ham this season, unless of course you want to acknowledge the role of their respective managers and ours.

"But it's worse than that, it's an attempt to upshift the stakes" Yes, and under Moshiri ambitions will be higher. As I stated earlier, if Martinez cannot compete in the current environment how can he compete in an even higher expectation environment - simply he can't. I make no apologies for suggesting the demands on the management team in the future are going to be higher than currently. That's why Moshiri has invested in the club to progress us - and there's no evidence whatsoever that Martinez is the man to achieve that and as a result he needs replacing.

As I said I don't expect you to agree but there's a huge amount of logic behind my view of what's about to happen, and Martinez in failing current expectations has no hope of succeeding in a higher expectation environment even with better players - had he advanced with the current improved squad there would be a case, but he hasn't and there's nothing to suggest he would do so in the future, therefore he has to go.

There's no point in restating your case when it's flawed. There's simply no rebuttal to the points I put to you other than for you to revert ultimately to a position whereby you are convinced Martinez doesn't have the "skill sets" to progress the club. There is no addressing of the issue of why the squad should be CL spot challengers if you yourself also contend they wouldn't be CL spot challengers under another manager either; there is no addressing of the issue about the higher threshold faced by this current manager via-a-vis past Everton managers with much worse records than Martinez.

I suppose you could continue dismissing these thoughts/objections in a world weary way, as if you're merely failing to convey your sound logic but it's actually just the case that you're trying to cope with your own inconsistency on the subject. What's happening, it seems to me, is that you have a subjective view of this managerial situation (simply stated as an axe to grind now) but are attempting to pass this off as an objective overview.

Anyway, it seems there's a certainty in your words about "what's about to happen", so perhaps you know something the rest of us don't?

 

[Goat]

There's no point in restating your case when it's flawed. There's simply no rebuttal to the points I put to you other than for you to revert ultimately to a position whereby you are convinced Martinez doesn't have the "skill sets" to progress the club. There is no addressing of the issue of why the squad should be CL spot challengers if you yourself also contend they wouldn't be CL spot challengers under another manager either; there is no addressing of the issue about the higher threshold faced by this current manager via-a-vis past Everton managers with much worse records than Martinez.

I suppose you could continue dismissing these thoughts/objections in a world weary way, as if you're merely failing to convey your sound logic but it's actually just the case that you're trying to cope with your own inconsistency on the subject. What's happening, it seems to me, is that you have a subjective view of this managerial situation (simply stated as an axe to grind now) but are attempting to pass this off as an objective overview.

Anyway, it seems there's a certainty in your words about "what's about to happen", so perhaps you know something the rest of us don't?

The squad IS good enough for top 4 tho David, nobodys saying he should be sacked for not getting it, but this man has a very talented squad and it sits in 12th, you and him would have us believe that its not his fault, that its the refs fault, its the home fans fault, its everybodys fault but Roberto Martinez and yet, you think he should get credit for "72 points", why, if he or you arent willing for him to take the blame for us currently being 12th, why should he gain credit for a "freak" season?

You are focusing on the wrong things, its a great tactic, you play the words of the man rather than the meaning behind the words, its what politicians have been doing for years and its a way of hiding the truth behind words, lawyers also employ the same tactics, but you aint in the house of lords, you aint Matlock.

In his first season, the majority of the fanbase were behind him, for MOST of this season people were willing to give him time to correct the mistakes and whilst our cup runs have been a welcome relief from our dismal league form, they shouldnt hide the fact that the current manager is not getting the best out of a talented group of players and has shown nothing in the 8 years of managing in this league that he does indeed have the skill set required to be a success in the league format.

 

[davek]

The squad IS good enough for top 4 tho David, nobodys saying he should be sacked for not getting it, but this man has a very talented squad and it sits in 12th, you and him would have us believe that its not his fault, that its the refs fault, its the home fans fault, its everybodys fault but Roberto Martinez and yet, you think he should get credit for "72 points", why, if he or you arent willing for him to take the blame for us currently being 12th, why should he gain credit for a "freak" season?
You are focusing on the wrong things, its a great tactic, you play the words of the man rather than the meaning behind the words, its what politicians have been doing for years and its a way of hiding the truth behind words, lawyers also employ the same tactics, but you aint in the house of lords, you aint Matlock.

In his first season, the majority of the fanbase were behind him, for MOST of this season people were willing to give him time to correct the mistakes and whilst our cup runs have been a welcome relief from our dismal league form, they shouldnt hide the fact that the current manager is not getting the best out of a talented group of players and has shown nothing in the 8 years of managing in this league that he does indeed have the skill set required to be a success in the league format.

I don't see how I'm doing that mate. Two questions asked, simple enough ones.

I just look for consistency. I don't see it here.

Never mind, apparently it's all done and dusted behind the scenes anyway. "What's about to happen" trumps all debate. You can't match the heft that puts into your position in a conversation.

 

[Goat]

"But there is a responsibility on the players to achieve this season, and not just on the players but myself too, the fans and everyone connected to the football club. We have to put ourselves in a position where we have to achieve over the next two months. At that point the individual situations will be very clear."


Spoken like a man that knows his days are numbered.

 

[kithnou]

"But there is a responsibility on the players to achieve this season, and not just on the players but myself too, the fans and everyone connected to the football club. We have to put ourselves in a position where we have to achieve over the next two months. At that point the individual situations will be very clear."


Spoken like a man that knows his days are numbered.

If he is including himself there then yes. Personally, I doubt it. I think he has assurances he is starting next season as Manager, but mid table is not going to be good enough again next season.

 

[Zatara]

Sorry mate I don't get this, I think it's a double standard here, Martinez's system is getting the credit for all our good attacking play and all our defenders are being hung out to dry as letting the system down. You could easily position the opposite here and say the system is flawed but fabulous attacking talents like Barkley and Lukaku individually make the front end work and would in any team. I've seen @Zatara articulate a similar argument along the lines of 'the attack and midfield is sorted, just the defence now once he gets his own players'.

I think we could have whoever we want at the back and it wouldn't make a significant difference. Indeed this has been proven over the last 2 seasons. Distin was axed, Stones came in, then Alcaraz took a turn, then Jags went out, this season it's been Jags and Stones, Stones and Mori, Mori and Jags. No difference. No matter the personell the errors continue. We've had Galloway and Browning at full back, Baines and Coleman, Oviedo, not one has looked comfortable there for the past 20 months. Then attention turned to the goalkeeper. Tim Howard was undoubtedly past his best and needed dropping but despite Robles being a better keeper the results have not picked up. We have stayed flatlining at around 30% win percentage for the past two seasons.

Out of all those defensive players you have the whole range. Top class footballers in Baines and Stones, no nonsense defenders in Mori Jags Coleman, experienced pros, young players, attacking fullbacks, defensive ones, centrebacks who can play it out, centrebacks who go long. Martinez has deployed every combination of them but with no change. These are international defenders that would be at home in any decent side in this league.

So I suggest instead that Martinez's system is simply imbalanced. We have no creativity in central midfield so we need it on the flanks, this forces him to play wide players with no defensive discipline such as Kone and Deulofeu, add this to a front two who don't pressure the ball and a midfield pairing where only one is mobile enough to do so and you can see where the problems lie. At times earlier this season McCarthy would be the only player out of the front 6 pressurising the ball. Easy pickings for decent opposition. This then means anytime our full backs overlap they are taking huge gambles. With the ball the system works, you have four attacking players effectively with free roles, and two full backs charging forward without hesitation (all often on the counter). Without the ball though there is no system, quite simply it's just 'leave it to the defenders'. That's not close to good enough at this level where any decent team attacks and defends from 1-11. Martinez has hung good players out to dry. He's probably cost the three lads at the back their Euro places in the 11 (if not the squad), and Coleman's stock has plummeted massively.

I havent read through the thread so dont know how this has continued, but seeing as i was tagged.

Lets simplify things a bit as well:

Distin + Jags has evolved to Stones + Mori

One has had a drop in form at 21 and the other is in his first season with us from overseas.

You're never going to get the consistency in year one compared to the Distin/Jags partnership.


Secondly, Baines and Coleman are attacking full backs. Neither are great positionally defensively, if martinez is telling them to go full on "Kevin Keegan" thats one thing but i dont think he is. Theyre just playing their natural games and were exposed defensively as opposed to having more defensively astute full backs.

Thirdly, Browning and Galloway are (as with stones and mori) inexperienced yet we looked alot more solid with them. That doesnt mean they should start but it does show the difference in ability attack/defence of the full back options.

Fourth, McCarthy and Barry is a short term fix. McCarthy hunts for the ball and Barry doesnt have the pace to cover, we would look better i think with Besic and McCarthy with McCarthy dedicated to defensive duties only.

Its all conjecture as logically you can only really say that out of the ENTIRE defence Martinez has brought in:

1 centre back from overseas
1 youth centre back to play right back
1 youth centre back to play left back
1 second choice goalkeeper

None of us know who he will sign or how he will setup the defence until he has the finances to do so.

 

[Zatara]

@The Esk @davek

A-- The "solid platform" was surely Moyes leaving a stable club after 11 years at the helm?

B -- The "Game changer" is that Martinez style needed to be embedded top to bottom. This doesnt evolve overnight so perhaps 3 years (until the end of this season) is a fair point to start assessing?

C -- The 'disruptive energy' from wholesale changes has been masked by Martinez positivity. He has almost changed the entire squad as well as the ethos in a rapid timeframe. However theres still old players not even in the squad now left from Moyes lingering around till summer.

D-- With the money he has spent in correlation to others and bearing in mind the value and quality of the players as well as them being effective in a different system he's enormously improved the midfield and attack. I dont think this is disputed -- has he improved the defence? Short term of course not but he hasnt focused on this area (really only swapping distin for Mori + Howard for 2nd choice Robles).

E-- If all is being considered, he hasnt signed the left winger he wants nor does he have full backs to fit the system. Additionally he also hasnt had the money to sign the central midfielder needed all season (we just need to look at injuries to McCarthy/Besic to see this).

I think if "Fair is Fair" then we accept that it takes time to build his own "solid platform" and allow him to bring in his own players to suit his style.

I also think its naive, ridiculous and even laughable to say we should be competing in the top 4...

1-- Keeper issue
2-- New centre back partnership
3-- Full backs who are weak defensively
4-- Central midifield issues
5-- No left midfield players

Just picking out a few top kids and saying they should be driving us to top 4 (which it seems the argument is) seems incredible to me.

Martinez i think most agree will sign most of the players needed above this summer.

Lukaku stays = brilliant
lukaku goes = the focus should be on the squad as a whole not just one player...

We were never going to be 4th, 8th was realistic.

 

[Goat]

Oh look its Zatman with his Fifa updates.

 

[Zatara]

Oh look its Zatman with his Fifa updates.

Oh look its a "Martinez Out" poster with no logical argument...

 

[bluewally]

I don't see how I'm doing that mate. Two questions asked, simple enough ones.

I just look for consistency. I don't see it here.

Never mind, apparently it's all done and dusted behind the scenes anyway. "What's about to happen" trumps all debate. You can't match the heft that puts into your position in a conversation.

Again
Challenging for 4th is not what he is being judged on

5th
to
11th
to
12th(currently)

Is what he is being judged on

 

[bluewally]

@The Esk @davek

A-- The "solid platform" was surely Moyes leaving a stable club after 11 years at the helm?

B -- The "Game changer" is that Martinez style needed to be embedded top to bottom. This doesnt evolve overnight so perhaps 3 years (until the end of this season) is a fair point to start assessing?

C -- The 'disruptive energy' from wholesale changes has been masked by Martinez positivity. He has almost changed the entire squad as well as the ethos in a rapid timeframe. However theres still old players not even in the squad now left from Moyes lingering around till summer.

D-- With the money he has spent in correlation to others and bearing in mind the value and quality of the players as well as them being effective in a different system he's enormously improved the midfield and attack. I dont think this is disputed -- has he improved the defence? Short term of course not but he hasnt focused on this area (really only swapping distin for Mori + Howard for 2nd choice Robles).

E-- If all is being considered, he hasnt signed the left winger he wants nor does he have full backs to fit the system. Additionally he also hasnt had the money to sign the central midfielder needed all season (we just need to look at injuries to McCarthy/Besic to see this).

I think if "Fair is Fair" then we accept that it takes time to build his own "solid platform" and allow him to bring in his own players to suit his style.

I also think its naive, ridiculous and even laughable to say we should be competing in the top 4...

1-- Keeper issue
2-- New centre back partnership
3-- Full backs who are weak defensively
4-- Central midifield issues
5-- No left midfield players

Just picking out a few top kids and saying they should be driving us to top 4 (which it seems the argument is) seems incredible to me.

Martinez i think most agree will sign most of the players needed above this summer.

Lukaku stays = brilliant
lukaku goes = the focus should be on the squad as a whole not just one player...

We were never going to be 4th, 8th was realistic.

8th was realistic?

Yet another example of Martinez managing expectations downwards

Takes a top 6 squad and finishes 5th and then starts "improving" it all the way to 12th in only 2 years

 

[Lee Smith]

OK let's put these to bed Dave

1)Martinez is being judged on the following criteria (i) he inherited in his own words "a great platform" from which to progress - we haven't progressed we've moved backwards in absolute and relative terms (ii) he's added well to the squad (just to show balance, as I say he has some skills) so the squad has improved but sadly results have not and there's no evidence in the PL of any change to this trend; (iii) the PL landscape has changed, the glass ceiling that existed predominantly in Moyes' days no longer exists due to a combination of increased investment in a wider number of clubs, the decline of previous incumbents in Manchester United, Chelsea, Liverpool and this season Manchester City, and the tactical astuteness and man management skills of managers such as Ranieri, Pochettino and Bilic. The glaring omission in contenders is our very own Everton.

2) As I've stated on many occasions our current squad is strong enough to compete in the current race for CL positions, that's almost universally acknowledged across the football community - I do not differ from that point of view at all. However I also realise that we must invest further and restructure the squad to increase our competitiveness particularly (i) if we wish to move from a top 4 challenger to a title challenger, and from a CL qualifier to a CL knock-out stage contender, and (ii) in the light of other clubs' spending plans, we must invest and restructure just to stand still. To not do so would mean in relative terms we move backwards - something we saw time and time again in the dark days of no funding being available for squad development under Moyes.

Now should we do this under a manager who has failed to fashion results out of our existing talents and has proven to be unable to compete at the higher levels our current squad suggests, let alone, an enhanced squad at even higher levels, or should we use our new purchasing power to acquire more skilled, more experienced, already proven management who can not only retain existing talent, but enhance and add to it?

It's a no brainer. It's not personal - we'll all wish Martinez the very best, and if he manages to secure a FA Cup win he'll be part of our folklore forever, but he's not the man to take us forward in the current environment and make the best of the opportunities ahead of us.

I cannot be clearer than that - I'm not asking you to agree necessarily as you're clearly of a singular view that Martinez is the man to achieve all we wish for, but you must accept the logic of the position I and many others propose.

Without wanting to sound like I'm brown nosing a Mod, this is possibly the best post I've read on GOT

 

[bluewally]

I havent read through the thread so dont know how this has continued, but seeing as i was tagged.

Lets simplify things a bit as well:

Distin + Jags has evolved to Stones + Mori

One has had a drop in form at 21 and the other is in his first season with us from overseas.

You're never going to get the consistency in year one compared to the Distin/Jags partnership.


Secondly, Baines and Coleman are attacking full backs. Neither are great positionally defensively, if martinez is telling them to go full on "Kevin Keegan" thats one thing but i dont think he is. Theyre just playing their natural games and were exposed defensively as opposed to having more defensively astute full backs.

Thirdly, Browning and Galloway are (as with stones and mori) inexperienced yet we looked alot more solid with them. That doesnt mean they should start but it does show the difference in ability attack/defence of the full back options.

Fourth, McCarthy and Barry is a short term fix. McCarthy hunts for the ball and Barry doesnt have the pace to cover, we would look better i think with Besic and McCarthy with McCarthy dedicated to defensive duties only.

Its all conjecture as logically you can only really say that out of the ENTIRE defence Martinez has brought in:

1 centre back from overseas
1 youth centre back to play right back
1 youth centre back to play left back
1 second choice goalkeeper

None of us know who he will sign or how he will setup the defence until he has the finances to do so.

We looked solider with browning and Galloway because they were reigned in a bit

Coleman and Baines are instructed to attack by Martinez. Do you really think he lets them go out and do what they want. I know most weeks it doesn't look like there's a plan but you can't just excuse him for an obvious tactical decision because you don't like baines and Coleman.

That's why they get caught out of position so often and that's why the cb's are exposed so often

I don't understand why you keep repeating the same point and blaming the players.

Are you saying each player who were part of the one of the solidest back 4s in the league all coincidentally become terrible at the same time Bobby starts to put his stamp on things but it's nothing to do with his coaching

Edit: also where does the stones/mori partnership come from

Jags is practically ever present this year and he and stones (until he got dropped) had been playing together regularly for at least a season so hardly new

 

[Brennan]

@The Esk @davek

A-- The "solid platform" was surely Moyes leaving a stable club after 11 years at the helm?

B -- The "Game changer" is that Martinez style needed to be embedded top to bottom. This doesnt evolve overnight so perhaps 3 years (until the end of this season) is a fair point to start assessing?

C -- The 'disruptive energy' from wholesale changes has been masked by Martinez positivity. He has almost changed the entire squad as well as the ethos in a rapid timeframe. However theres still old players not even in the squad now left from Moyes lingering around till summer.

D-- With the money he has spent in correlation to others and bearing in mind the value and quality of the players as well as them being effective in a different system he's enormously improved the midfield and attack. I dont think this is disputed -- has he improved the defence? Short term of course not but he hasnt focused on this area (really only swapping distin for Mori + Howard for 2nd choice Robles).

E-- If all is being considered, he hasnt signed the left winger he wants nor does he have full backs to fit the system. Additionally he also hasnt had the money to sign the central midfielder needed all season (we just need to look at injuries to McCarthy/Besic to see this).

I think if "Fair is Fair" then we accept that it takes time to build his own "solid platform" and allow him to bring in his own players to suit his style.

I also think its naive, ridiculous and even laughable to say we should be competing in the top 4...

1-- Keeper issue
2-- New centre back partnership
3-- Full backs who are weak defensively
4-- Central midifield issues
5-- No left midfield players

Just picking out a few top kids and saying they should be driving us to top 4 (which it seems the argument is) seems incredible to me.

Martinez i think most agree will sign most of the players needed above this summer.

Lukaku stays = brilliant
lukaku goes = the focus should be on the squad as a whole not just one player...

We were never going to be 4th, 8th was realistic.

Bilic has changed West Ham's style in one season.

Ranieri has changed Leicester's style in one season.

Pochettino has changed Spurs' style in two seasons.

Martinez has had free reign and a good transfer budget. Absolutely no excuse to still be needing time to 'embed' his style.

 

[Khalekan]

We were never going to be 4th, 8th was realistic.

Why do you say that Zat, when Leicester are sitting atop the league and closing in on the title, having been rock bottom little more than twelve months ago?

And few would disagree that our squad is better than theirs.

West Ham are very much in the mix for 4th place......this is a team we played against with ten men for most the game and were outplaying until a dumb substitution turned the tide in their favour.

If it is on for Leicester and West Ham to mount serious challenges at the top end of the league then few would take issue with the belief that it was proper on for EFC as well.
.

 

[McBain]

Dave, I've answered every single point you've raised - but I'll do it again:



"The "great platform" you mention was Moyes' legacy" - 2 minutes 40 seconds, Martinez words not mine.

"Was he remotely ever being shuffled to the exit for failing to land the CL spots on a regular basis?" Ambitions were lower, the glass ceiling was wholly intact and the squad of a lower quality than we currently have. The Board had no ambition other than 40 points -something I have spoken about in the past and has been acknowledged on national media.

"Martinez progression" - yes in the first year, no in the second year (benefit of the doubt was given as 2nd year syndrome), no in the third year (poor results, lack of tactical progression and ability to change course of games)

"Squad" please re-read my earlier comments - good enough for CL qualification this year but to maintain relative position and progress as described needs significant restructuring.

"The opposite case can more persuasively made that the churn is a result of many teams now being capable of mounting a challenge for top four places in the new financial reality, which has occurred in tandem with loss of form amongst the usual cash doped elite" How you can justify this current squad at Everton not being in the mix is frankly beyond me when you see the achievements of Leicester, Spurs and West Ham this season, unless of course you want to acknowledge the role of their respective managers and ours.

"But it's worse than that, it's an attempt to upshift the stakes" Yes, and under Moshiri ambitions will be higher. As I stated earlier, if Martinez cannot compete in the current environment how can he compete in an even higher expectation environment - simply he can't. I make no apologies for suggesting the demands on the management team in the future are going to be higher than currently. That's why Moshiri has invested in the club to progress us - and there's no evidence whatsoever that Martinez is the man to achieve that and as a result he needs replacing.

As I said I don't expect you to agree but there's a huge amount of logic behind my view of what's about to happen, and Martinez in failing current expectations has no hope of succeeding in a higher expectation environment even with better players - had he advanced with the current improved squad there would be a case, but he hasn't and there's nothing to suggest he would do so in the future, therefore he has to go.