Everton and Martinez are to blame should Lukaku leave

[Goat]

Oh look its a "Martinez Out" poster with no logical argument...

Logical?

And yet you wish to retain a Manager with 4 home wins all season?

 

[Goat]

Bilic has changed West Ham's style in one season.

Ranieri has changed Leicester's style in one season.

Pochettino has changed Spurs' style in two seasons.

Martinez has had free reign and a good transfer budget. Absolutely no excuse to still be needing time to 'embed' his style.

Ask him what Martinezs style is tho.

Thats the best bit, he starts talking about playing like Barca.

I would settle for playing like West Ham or Spurs at the moment like.

Baby steps

 

[kithnou]

Ask him what Martinezs style is tho.

Thats the best bit, he starts talking about playing like Barca.

I would settle for playing like West Ham or Spurs at the moment like.

Baby steps

With British dross. Great game plan that.

 

[riddick]

There's no point in restating your case when it's flawed. There's simply no rebuttal to the points I put to you other than for you to revert ultimately to a position whereby you are convinced Martinez doesn't have the "skill sets" to progress the club. There is no addressing of the issue of why the squad should be CL spot challengers if you yourself also contend they wouldn't be CL spot challengers under another manager either; there is no addressing of the issue about the higher threshold faced by this current manager via-a-vis past Everton managers with much worse records than Martinez.

I suppose you could continue dismissing these thoughts/objections in a world weary way, as if you're merely failing to convey your sound logic but it's actually just the case that you're trying to cope with your own inconsistency on the subject. What's happening, it seems to me, is that you have a subjective view of this managerial situation (simply stated as an axe to grind now) but are attempting to pass this off as an objective overview.

Anyway, it seems there's a certainty in your words about "what's about to happen", so perhaps you know something the rest of us don't?

There is a clear line between "delusional" and "pragmatic". In fact, I'm not even sure you even know what "pragmatic" means. It means 'understanding the viewpoint of the person contrary to your opinion'. You dismiss EVERYTHING. You don't say "well, yeah, he's really poor here", you go after people in ad hominoms

 

[ilikecheese]

Bilic has changed West Ham's style in one season.

Ranieri has changed Leicester's style in one season.

Pochettino has changed Spurs' style in two seasons.

Martinez has had free reign and a good transfer budget. Absolutely no excuse to still be needing time to 'embed' his style.

Well Martinez completely changed our style in his first season too.

Not that it's translated to season 2 or 3...

 

[Lee Smith]

Dave, I've answered every single point you've raised - but I'll do it again:



"The "great platform" you mention was Moyes' legacy" - 2 minutes 40 seconds, Martinez words not mine.

"Was he remotely ever being shuffled to the exit for failing to land the CL spots on a regular basis?" Ambitions were lower, the glass ceiling was wholly intact and the squad of a lower quality than we currently have. The Board had no ambition other than 40 points -something I have spoken about in the past and has been acknowledged on national media.

"Martinez progression" - yes in the first year, no in the second year (benefit of the doubt was given as 2nd year syndrome), no in the third year (poor results, lack of tactical progression and ability to change course of games)

"Squad" please re-read my earlier comments - good enough for CL qualification this year but to maintain relative position and progress as described needs significant restructuring.

"The opposite case can more persuasively made that the churn is a result of many teams now being capable of mounting a challenge for top four places in the new financial reality, which has occurred in tandem with loss of form amongst the usual cash doped elite" How you can justify this current squad at Everton not being in the mix is frankly beyond me when you see the achievements of Leicester, Spurs and West Ham this season, unless of course you want to acknowledge the role of their respective managers and ours.

"But it's worse than that, it's an attempt to upshift the stakes" Yes, and under Moshiri ambitions will be higher. As I stated earlier, if Martinez cannot compete in the current environment how can he compete in an even higher expectation environment - simply he can't. I make no apologies for suggesting the demands on the management team in the future are going to be higher than currently. That's why Moshiri has invested in the club to progress us - and there's no evidence whatsoever that Martinez is the man to achieve that and as a result he needs replacing.

As I said I don't expect you to agree but there's a huge amount of logic behind my view of what's about to happen, and Martinez in failing current expectations has no hope of succeeding in a higher expectation environment even with better players - had he advanced with the current improved squad there would be a case, but he hasn't and there's nothing to suggest he would do so in the future, therefore he has to go.

 

[JAYTALITY]

How is it 'not improving' when we've won more away games than last season, scored more goals, and gone way further in both cups?

You are picking peanuts out of a big load of scutter there Dave.

 

[ilikecheese]

You are picking peanuts out of a big load of scutter there Dave.

As difficult as it may be to understand/admit...through 29 games we have improved over last season. 7 points better...15 more goals scored, same goals conceded, and two places higher in the table.

It's not where we need to be, but the facts are we have improved from last season in the league. The biggest factor is only 1 road loss...which frankly would be pretty darn impressive if our home form wasn't a disaster.

 

[JAYTALITY]

As difficult as it may be to understand/admit...through 29 games we have improved over last season. 7 points better...15 more goals scored, same goals conceded, and two places higher in the table.

It's not where we need to be, but the facts are we have improved from last season in the league. The biggest factor is only 1 road loss...which frankly would be pretty darn impressive if our home form wasn't a disaster.

None of that consoles me one tiny bit though. Without deviding up our results as home/away and highlighting minor but ultimately meaningless stats it's just resulting on the same as last season league wise. I think we went on a good run in April last year didn't we and looked decent, so we are really going to have to break stride if we don't want last season to overtake this one. By the time April is out a few more clutched straws could have dissappeared. Not that it matters either way.

Having said that I do want us to smash United and go on a run it will do our trip to Wembo some good. My Martinez opposition aside.

 

[ilikecheese]

None of that consoles me one tiny bit though. Without deviding up our results as home/away and highlighting minor but ultimately meaningless stats it's just resulting on the same as last season league wise. I think we went on a good run in April last year didn't we and looked decent, so we are really going to have to break stride if we don't want last season to overtake this one. By the time April is out a few more clutched straws could have dissappeared. Not that it matters either way.

Having said that I do want us to smash United and go on a run it will do our trip to Wembo some good. My Martinez opposition aside.

I understand that and I think your opinion is a genuine reflection of the average fan. It's why I think out is the only answer even if we match the 5-1-3 finish from last season...even if we win the Cup.

I don't necessarily agree with it...but I want what is best for the club. The polarizing figure that Martinez is, is driving our fans apart.

 

[JAYTALITY]

I understand that and I think your opinion is a genuine reflection of the average fan. It's why I think out is the only answer even if we match the 5-1-3 finish from last season...even if we win the Cup.

I don't necessarily agree with it...but I want what is best for the club. The polarizing figure that Martinez is, is driving our fans apart.

Ye polarising is one way of looking at it. It's the Martinez effect, I said it in another thread. We should be celebrating a line like 'we can compete financially with anyone' but we can't. 22 year old prodigy record breaker? Nope can't enjoy it. Billionaire owner? Nope.

The Martinez effect.

But honestly if we win the cup. Id shut up. Any Evertonian would have to for the summer and good portion of the season or else you'd sound a bit daft, like Mr K daft, but if we find ourselves midtable after splashing the Mosh dosh I'd have seen enough... Again.

 

[Sentinel]

The polarizing figure that Martinez is, is driving our fans apart

I know were you're going with this line of reasoning and you've repeated it a few times. I'm not disagreeing, I'd point out though that Howard Kendall was himself initially polarizing.

What turns a lot of supporters around is success, Kendall delivered ultimately.

I will say this though, I read a lot of posts about Everton on various sites. There's a lot of wise hindsight going on recently. Besides the eternal optimists amongst us, I can't readily recall too many suggesting we'd finish top 4 this season. Top 6 yes, but not higher than that. I also seem to remember last season the argument, that you only finish in around were your wage bill allows. So again, between 10th and 5th or thereabouts. I'm not defending Martinez underachievement in the league, just saying there's a lot people jumping on the bandwagon stating we should be top 4. Who knew how the the season would pan out back in August?

 

[kithnou]

As difficult as it may be to understand/admit...through 29 games we have improved over last season. 7 points better...15 more goals scored, same goals conceded, and two places higher in the table.

It's not where we need to be, but the facts are we have improved from last season in the league. The biggest factor is only 1 road loss...which frankly would be pretty darn impressive if our home form wasn't a disaster.

Last year was an absolute disaster that had me wondering after January if my beloved club may finally be going down. If we are basing the argument on that then we really have reached a new low of spin I fear.

 

[ilikecheese]

I know were you're going with this line of reasoning and you've repeated it a few times. I'm not disagreeing, I'd point out though that Howard Kendall was himself initially polarizing.

What turns a lot of supporters around is success, Kendall delivered ultimately.

I will say this though, I read a lot of posts about Everton on various sites. There's a lot of wise hindsight going on recently. Besides the eternal optimists amongst us, I can't readily recall too many suggesting we'd finish top 4 this season. Top 6 yes, but not higher than that. I also seem to remember last season the argument, that you only finish in around were your wage bill allows. So again, between 10th and 5th or thereabouts. I'm not defending Martinez underachievement in the league, just saying there's a lot people jumping on the bandwagon stating we should be top 4. Who knew how the the season would pan out back in August?

Well ultimately the polarizing statement is the obvious quick jibes that started before we ever kicked a ball under Martinez...and have continued for three years now.

Because he ultimately got Wigan dropped it has been the obvious stick to beat him with at the drop of a hat.

He was a polarizing hire simply because of that fact. He schooled Moyes in the Cup...which for me was the primary reason for his hire. For some I also think that made it polarizing.

Even in the first season when we were flying in early Spring...the moment we lost a bit of form the negativity was showing.

Sadly unless he does something remarkable (more than winning the Cup) he will never be fully backed.

He is very polarizing....unless he exceeds the expectations of the fans. Winning a pot doesn't even seem to be enough at this point.

 

[ilikecheese]

Last year was an absolute disaster that had me wondering after January if my beloved club may finally be going down. If we are basing the argument on that then we really have reached a new low of spin I fear.

We were never close to the drop.

The facts are we have have improved if only slightly.

I despair at folks who only focus on the negative.