Current Affairs EU In or Out

In or Out

  • In

    Votes: 688 67.9%
  • Out

    Votes: 325 32.1%

  • Total voters
    1,013
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Surely you're not denying that there is a link between our status within the EU and our GBP?

o_O

Pg,
What I am saying, and I thought I had made this clear in my previous posts, is that one the one hand, there is a sum of money that, after rebates and paybacks and everything else, we basically 'give' to the EU. Any impact on GDP, good or bad, I cannot comment on or state, as I do not have the information, figures, statistics, to base any sound comment on.

So I have simply commented on the fiscal scenario vis-a-vis the UK and the EU with respect of what goes to them, and what comes back, and what that looks like in terms of the money we give to the EU year-on-year. That's all.
 
Pg,
What I am saying, and I thought I had made this clear in my previous posts, is that one the one hand, there is a sum of money that, after rebates and paybacks and everything else, we basically 'give' to the EU. Any impact on GDP, good or bad, I cannot comment on or state, as I do not have the information, figures, statistics, to base any sound comment on.

So I have simply commented on the fiscal scenario vis-a-vis the UK and the EU with respect of what goes to them, and what comes back, and what that looks like in terms of the money we give to the EU year-on-year. That's all.

Maybe look them up?

Given it's not exactly hard to find expert-led evidence on the subject matter?
 
- Far right populist parties have gained ground throughout Europe, all of whom having referred to Brexit in support of what they're doing. This leads to the very real possibility of several European countries having far-right governments in the next year.

That isn't happening because of Brexit, it is happening because people do not like what the EU is doing or the direction it is going in.
 
Oh come on. Discuss sensibly, will you? GDP existed ever before we entered the EU. It is not suddenly the be-all-and-end-all of the UK's financial equation...

It did indeed. And we've benefited ever since.

Red line is the projection if we'd never been a member of the single market. Black line is the actual numbers.

Screen+Shot+2014-05-24+at+09.52.12.png


  1. According to one study - over ten years (1993-2003), the Single Market has boosted the EU’s GDP by €877 billion [£588 billion]. This represents €5,700 [£3,819] of extra income per household.
 
How aren't you getting this?

We pay an 'entrance fee' to be in the single market. As a result of that entry fee, we get massive, massive economic benefits which equate to an estimated 4-5% of our GDP per year.

So it's like paying a tenner to get back fifty quid. Yet on your planet, you consider that throwing away the tenner!


How is pissing £8,372,000,000 per year a great return.

I will accept your argument if you can show ACTUAL figures to support the figure you quote as benefiting our GDP per year (and I note you use the word 'estimated'...) against a figure or NOT being in the EU and how our GDP is affected then (with you giving the full scenario of how our trade post-Brexit with the rest of the world has adversely/positively affected the UK's GDP).

You see, you are working only on hypotheses and opinions. You cannot ground facts on hypotheses and opinions. 'He who asserts must prove' is a legal tenet which applies to many things in life. Your points in this discussion are assertions without any proof, and are therefore fatally flawed.

We are NOT paying a tenner to get back fifty quid. We are giving the EU a tenner and they are saying, 'Thank you very much', and sticking it in their back pocket.
 
It did indeed. And we've benefited ever since.

Red line is the projection if we'd never been a member of the single market. Black line is the actual numbers.

Screen+Shot+2014-05-24+at+09.52.12.png


  1. According to one study - over ten years (1993-2003), the Single Market has boosted the EU’s GDP by €877 billion [£588 billion]. This represents €5,700 [£3,819] of extra income per household.

Sorry, projections are just that. Someone's finger in the wind. No more, no less. Not worth a proverbial carrot...
 
No mate, Bramley Moore Dock or Croxteth apparently.

The old Kings Dock plan would have been closer to the Echo Arena, not L1.
That's what I posted do you ever read posts??????????????????????
If BK had found a mere 40 million of investment the area that you rave about by the echo arena would not have been developed for EU funds as we would have had a super ground a infrastructure of roads carparks etc etc in that area yes on the periphery of EFC development EU money would have been spent, but the major area of L 1 would have been down to our football club if you follow us???????????
 
Oh come on. Discuss sensibly, will you? GDP existed ever before we entered the EU. It is not suddenly the be-all-and-end-all of the UK's financial equation...

GDP didn't exist? GDP is a measure.

It's like saying that something that is 100 metres wasn't that length fifty years ago because we measured in feet and yards.

Pg,
What I am saying, and I thought I had made this clear in my previous posts, is that one the one hand, there is a sum of money that, after rebates and paybacks and everything else, we basically 'give' to the EU. Any impact on GDP, good or bad, I cannot comment on or state, as I do not have the information, figures, statistics, to base any sound comment on.

So I have simply commented on the fiscal scenario vis-a-vis the UK and the EU with respect of what goes to them, and what comes back, and what that looks like in terms of the money we give to the EU year-on-year. That's all.

You can find those figures and compare/analyse/draw conclsuions, it's been done too.
 
That's what I posted do you ever read posts??????????????????????
If BK had found a mere 40 million of investment the area that you rave about by the echo arena would not have been developed for EU funds as we would have had a super ground a infrastructure of roads carparks etc etc in that area yes on the periphery of EFC development EU money would have been spent, but the major area of L 1 would have been down to our football club if you follow us???????????

I read them all.

I'm not raving about the arena, but I have read that it was one of the single largest EU investments of all.

Everton didn't develop the area, the EU did. I'm not sure how Everton link in, we spaffed our chance, the EU kind of stepped in.
 
As an aside, the following is from the VC of Sheffield University, who was on the recent trip to India with Theresa May. More grist for the mill that the divide between what May says (and thinks) and reality seems to be growing ever wider.

https://www.timeshighereducation.co...eith-burnett-theresa-mays-trade-mission-india

University of Sheffield vice-chancellor Sir Keith Burnett joined UK prime minister Theresa May on her recent trade visit to India. In this blog, he reflects on Ms May’s claims that the visit was a success. “I went to India to deliver on global Britain and I have to say that the response I’ve had here in India has been excellent,” Ms May said of the trip. “This is my first trade mission but we’ve seen on this visit deals worth a billion pounds being signed.”

I must be hearing different voices from those that Theresa May is hearing.

Indians who studied in the UK say we don’t act as if we are good friends any more. They say we want their money and business but are not willing to teach their children, even if they pay full whack.

They hear that our universities are allowed to teach and take the money only if Indian students are rich enough not to need a job, or can graduate to a job that pays over the odds in some parts of the UK. The Indians I have met say this is not really friendly at all.

To some, it seems fairly insulting. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, and a 50 per cent drop in the number of Indians studying in the UK since 2010 should be the mother of all wake-up calls.

The prime minister says that it shouldn’t matter. She says she doesn’t think they should care about us making it easier for students to come to the UK. She can’t be hearing what I’m hearing. She just wants free trade with India. Free trade means free trade, she says, good for all and nothing to do with students. She even insists that students should be labelled as migrants, which is completely potty. Even Nigel Farage didn’t want that.

In any case, Indians feel doubly insulted by this position.

It was already getting bad when UK home secretary Amber Rudd’s conference speech blew the issue sky-high in the Indian press. Now when I talk to Indians, the hurt is plain. I feel truly ashamed, and don’t want that hurt to be ignored or unheeded. In fact, I’m sure that we need a full-scale response to the danger it heralds.

I have tried to stay positive for the past four years as I’ve seen things rot. I have groaned as changes in visa regulations pushed more and more potential students away. The government has assured us that it was not deliberately trying to reduce the numbers. Well, that may be the truth, but the results are in. A 50 per cent drop!

Other countries are rubbing their hands with glee at our stupidity. Ms May is announcing that her trade mission has seen £1 billion in deals announced for the UK. But remember that international students are worth £14 billion to the UK economy every year. That’s equivalent to more than one major trade mission a month.

What is more, these talented young people build the future links that lead to cooperation and trade. Their tuition fees will pay the wages of Australian and Canadian university staff. Worse still, their wit and friendship will bless others.

It is no good closing our ears or blaming reduced numbers on a misunderstanding of a technical detail. Our stance towards overseas students in terms of reduced numbers or closed visa options is disastrous for our relationship with this great nation. This great nation that we want to trade with so much.

I will not speak of the real harm that these policies will do to cities across the UK, where students are vital drivers of the local economy. Others can speak of that.

But what I want – what I need – to emphasise is how we are destroying hard-earned goodwill with a huge proportion of the world’s population. You should care about this. Your children’s jobs in the future could depend on it. So I’m going to work hard to make our education the very best for potential Indian students, and make the welcome as warm as possible in Sheffield.

Sheffield students, leaders and I founded the #WeAreInternational campaign. I am damned proud of the students and staff across the UK who have joined us to show that we are still the nation that India can be friends with. And I will be working to make clear that the vast majority of Brits welcome students from India and don’t think of them as migrants – 91 per cent, in fact, in a recent survey.

I will work to build collaborations with Indian universities and companies. We will continue to work together on cures for diseases and inventions that will help to make our planet more sustainable.

But I must beg, and I do beg. Please listen to India before it is too late.
Brucie is going into Google overdrivelol
 
lol it sounds like the next time you have a health issue you'll be going to see the local mechanic or butcher rather than a doctor. Whadda they know? And doctors are wrong quite often too before that argument about experts being wrong is trotted out.

Seriously though, you have a problem or an issue or whatever. You'll have folks that explore it, examine it, try and apply facts and evidence to make the best decision. Note, I'm not saying it's the perfect decision as quite often it won't be anywhere close, but what's the alternative? That you try and make a decision based upon not exploring it, not examining it, applying no facts or evidence?

We really, really need a sarcasm/irony font on here.

not quite apples Vs apples; Tubey was saying/inferring - ALL experts are right as the clue is in the name and the world is full of Idiots...but only if they don't believe 'The Experts' 100%. I hoped the contrary view in it's similar silliness might tweak a sensible brain cell or two
#pearls before swine

On Doctors; they're just like mechanics... but body mechanics; and there are 'good' and 'not so good' (and also cheap and not so cheap)

One shows me a blocked fuel pump or a scan of a blocked heart artery and I ask when can you do it, then how much.
With both I've found two who know what they're at and don't over charge you and/or set you up for stuff you don't need just for the sake of it...and both insist I come in for regular servicing/checks.
 
I read them all.

I'm not raving about the arena, but I have read that it was one of the single largest EU investments of all.

Everton didn't develop the area, the EU did. I'm not sure how Everton link in, we spaffed our chance, the EU kind of stepped in.
Yes but my post if you ever read anyones post that disagrees with you is if we had not spaffed our chance development would have been made in that area with our EU directives not funds as it was our monies anyway!
 
Interesting piece on INSEAD

History may show that the single biggest casualty of 2016 was the credibility of elites. The one-two punch of Brexit and Trump has left establishment media and politicians reeling, their prestige cast into doubt. Their obliviousness to the right-wing populist surge exposed the bubble that most elites live in. It’s clear that they’ve been speaking and listening to one another within that bubble for far too long.

So what now? Since Donald J. Trump’s victory, we’ve seen a bevy of ostensibly soul-searching think pieces from elites attempting to pinpoint how they got it wrong. But even amid this seeming display of humility, a streak of superiority shows through.

In The Washington Post, for example: “We wanted to believe… America was better than that. I can fault journalists for a lot of things, but I can’t fault us for that.”

A British professor of politics was quoted in The New York Times, “It’s no longer ‘the economy, stupid’, it’s ‘identity, stupid’… Identity and cultural politics are even bigger determinants of people’s politics than we thought possible.”

This hardly qualifies as soul-searching – it’s closer to blame-shifting or rationalised self-righteousness. It neglects patterns of history wherein identity and culture-based grievances flare up at times of increased economic insecurity (Nazi Germany being an extreme example). If this is the best elites can do in terms of learning from their failures, we have cause to worry, considering that upcoming elections in Europe may determine whether the rising populist tide will submerge more of the continent.

The trap of professionalism

To understand the intellectual elite’s current trouble, look no further than Hillary Clinton – widely predicted to win even a few days before the election and overwhelmingly supported by elites. Her campaign website bulged with detailed, rational plans to address issues from substance abuse and education to terrorism and climate change. The trees were all well-groomed, but the forest did not inspire. Her attempts to show voters a softer, more relatable side appeared “forced” and were roundly mocked on television. Still, the Clinton camp believed that carefully calibrated policy fixes would compensate for insufficient inspiration at the core of the candidacy. They’d succumbed to what I call the trap of professionalism, an epidemic among elites in which analytical thinking – focus on intellectual details – is exalted, while emotion – more intuitive, holistic consideration of human social-psychological needs – is automatically disdained.

Trump’s mind-set was the polar opposite: holistic rather than analytical, focused on the forest instead of the trees. To use President Obama’s words, Trump may not be a “plans guy” or a “facts guy”, but he was much better at reading the emotional undercurrent of the times. Moreover, unlike the elites, he correctly diagnosed the holistic root cause: perceived increasing income inequality – and made good use of it. Trump’s antics on the campaign trail were very effective at projecting sympathy for Americans who (rightly or wrongly) felt shut out of the halting economic recovery. His raucous rallies gave financially insecure Americans an outlet for their anger as well as a gallery of scapegoats (illegal immigrants, Muslims, etc.). Despite not being an “intellectual”, Trump had apparently learned from history that wherever a once-dominant group feels threatened by systemic change, you’ll find a wellspring of negative collective emotions that can be leveraged to gain political power. The emotional bond he formed with his followers was so strong that it easily withstood scandals on an almost daily basis.

Conversely, Clinton’s emotion-averse, analytic mind-set gave rise to her disastrous “basket of deplorables” comment. In the space of a few sentences, she revealed a total lack of empathy for millions of non-elite Americans which Trump’s campaign brilliantly capitalised upon. Had she not been a typical elite caught in the trap of professionalism, she might have been able to perceive, and sympathise with, the feelings of economic vulnerability, fear of the future, and anger at perceived social injustice that underlie the xenophobia of many Trump supporters. Instead, she condemned them as dyed-in-the-wool bigots unworthy of sympathy.

“Build that wall”

Meanwhile, elites intensified their attention on the trees rather than the forest, pouring their energy into proving that Trump was inaccurate on hundreds of points. Consider Trump’s pledge to build a wall between the U.S. and Mexico, with the promise that Mexico would foot the bill. The media reported all the reasons the wall was a pipe dream (prohibitive costs, etc.), but Trump’s followers could not have cared less: “Build the wall!” remained a popular refrain at Trump rallies throughout the campaign.

As Peter Thiel pointed out in his much-quoted remarks, the wall was never meant to be taken literally. Trump voters understood it as a metaphor for the protections that would preserve their imperilled social and economic standing (a more holistic consideration). Whether or not their anxieties were well-founded, the holistic metaphor of a wall allowed them to fix their imaginations on the hope of a better life, just as did the pie-in-the-sky promises of the Leave campaign in the U.K. Even after Brexit and Trump, the intellectual elite has no answer to the emotional appeal of right-wing populism, except a dismissive, “basket of deplorables”-style rejoinder. If elites keep flaunting their analytic and (supposed) moral superiority, they’ll continue acting as convenient punching bags for populist demagogues.

Reforming our educational curriculum

In the longer term, solving the leadership deficiency begins with reforming the curriculum of prestigious schools that most elites attend. Few people are born with the compulsion to suppress their emotional side; it’s socialised into us. As we grow into adulthood, the current educational system rewards us for our mastery of difficult intellectual concepts. The curriculum is heavily tilted towards analytic training. Balance is urgently needed for future leaders to avoid falling into the trap of professionalism. Analytic thinking is necessary for writing a business plan or doing scientific work, but motivating people requires a holistic and sympathetic mind-set as well.


Read more at http://knowledge.insead.edu/blog/in...ant-learn-its-lesson-5040#Dg5jasAzthBFwhCD.99

That's a really good piece Bruce. The EU are currently trying to convince themselves that the Russians were behind Brexit, etc etc. It is the stock reply of elites to believe that they were right no matter what the result and no reason will shake them from this belief........
 
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