Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Joey66]

Andrew Neil.

You've completed the prophecy.

Digby Jones actually if you watch a top business man in action on this week fed up of doom and gloom and the Remoaners lol

 

[Joey66]

Tuesday, 25 October 2016

Who is to blame for Brexit? Part One - who voted for it?

On 23 June 2016, the British people voted 51.9% to 48.1% to leave the European Union.
The turnout of 72.2% was much higher than in recent General Elections. However, 13 million registered voters did not vote and another 7 million eligible voters were not even registered. Millions of EU citizens living in the UK as well as 16 and 17 year olds were not allowed to vote, although there had been moves in some quarters to let them do so.
The vote for Brexit was a self-inflicted wound that seems likely to blight the UK for generations. The consequences of the vote are already being felt - a rising tide of intolerance and bigotry; the value of sterling has plummeted (according to one financial journalist to its lowest level since Henry VIII) pushing up the cost of imports, including food bills; Scotland is quite possibly heading for a second independence referendum, having very decisively voted to Remain.
As for the future, it is clouded with uncertainty and threat. It is clear that not only does the May government lack any plan to obtain the “best deal for Britain”, it does not even know what deal it wants.
“Vote Leave, Take Control” may become a catchphrase for arch-stupidity.
Who voted for Brexit? Immediately after the shock of the result of the referendum, it was being said that Brexit was due to the votes of working class Northerners. This narrative has been much repeated and is now widely accepted as true. It is not true.
Professor Danny Dorling has looked at the results of the only large scale survey carried out with voters on the day of the referendum by Lord Ashcroft. He found that the typical Leave voter is likely to have been middle class and living in the South.
Dorling points out that

• two-thirds of all those who voted either Remain or Leave were middle class (social classes A, B or C1)
• 59% of those who voted Leave were middle class
• 52% of those who voted Leave lived in the South of England
• proportion of Leave voters in lowest two social classes, D and E, was just 24%

Here are some other results below taken from the Ashcroft survey.
Age of voters

• the older the voter the more likely they were to vote Leave
• 73% of 18 to 24 year olds voted Remain
• 60% of those over 65 voted Leave

Ethnicity of voters

• White voters voted to Leave 53% to 47%
• Asian voters voted to Remain 67% to 33%
• Black voters voted to Remain 73% to 27%

How supporters of political parties voted
In favour of Leave

• Tories - 42% Remain; 58% Leave
• UKIP - 4% Remain; 96% Leave

In favour of Remain

• Labour - 63% Remain; 37% Leave
• SNP - 64% Remain; 36% Leave
• Lib Dem - 70% Remain; 30% Leave
• Greens - 75% Remain; 25% Leave

There are many more supporters of some parties than of others. Here is the make up of the Remain and Leave votes by party affiliation
How Remain vote was made up
Labour - 39%
Tory - 31%
Lib Dem - 12%
Greens - 7%
SNP - 6%
Other - 2%
UKIP - 1%
Plaid Cymru - 1%
How Leave vote was made up
Tory - 40%
UKIP - 25%
Labour - 21%
Lib Dem - 5%
SNP - 3%
Green - 2%
Other - 2%
Plaid Cymru - 1%
Almost 4 in 10 Remainers were Labour; 4 in 10 Leavers were Tory. Although there are comparatively few UKIP supporters almost all of them voted in the referendum so that they made up 25% of the Leave vote.
Reasons for voting Leave
The top three reasons for voting Leave were

• principle that decision about UK should be taken in UK 49%
• best chance to regain control over immigration 33%
• remaining would mean having no choice about how EU expanded membership in years ahead 13%

Crucially none of these three reasons bears out the electoral wisdom taken from Bill Clinton’s 1992 campaign that it’s “the economy stupid”.
In fact, a majority of voters thought that Remain would be better for the economy, international investment and the UK’s influence in the world.
Social attitudes
How did the people who thought the following a “force for ill” vote?
Multiculturalism - 81% Leave voters
- 19% Remain voters
Social liberalism - 80% Leave voters
- 20% Remain voters
Feminism - 74% Leave voters
26% Remain voters
The Green Movement - 78% Leave voters
- 22% Remain voters
Immigration - 80% Leave voters
- 20% Remain voters

The typical Leave voter was not a Northern working class Mirror reader. They were Southern and middle class and read the Telegraph or the Mail.
The typical Leave voter was also white and elderly. Many would still remember the days that Britain had an Empire. Perhaps the words of American Dean Acheson describe the feelings of many of these voters towards their country. Acheson said in 1962 that “Great Britain has lost an Empire and has not yet found a role”. Their vote was a defiant assertion of their country’s greatness. Sadly, they were delusional.


http://tomdlondon.blogspot.co.uk/

Did not realise all that was on the ballot paper thought it was a secret ballot?????

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Did I read this correctly?
Irrespective of which way one votes, just as after any election, the result stands. Whether it goes against the grain, it is everybody's duty,
and to their ultimate benefit, to make a success of whatever is presented to you.
I admire the truth however it is presented, but this. I am astounded.

Bruce that's so so negative how can you want that ???????????????????
To win your argument you would like the country go bust so we would crawl back to a zero growth organisation and face more punishment??????????????????????

Quite the worst post ever in this thread of 710 pages...

Unbelieveable...

I'm not sure if patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel, but nationalism sure is the first refuge of the dolt. I very much regard myself as a citizen of the world. You know, one of those people who Teresa May held in such poor esteem in her conference speech. There are many people living on this rock that I hold in the highest of regard, but those who believe some special privilege is due because a person happened to be born on this rock are those who I couldn't really hold in lower regard. They, and more importantly their thinking, need to fail as it's poisonous.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Why does a free trade arrangement also demand free, unlimited, unquantifiable movement of people?

Ok, I'll boil it down. Companies trade. Companies employ people. Free movement says that companies can employ whomever they want without seeking government permission. They can then use this unfettered workforce to sell anywhere they want in Europe, again without asking anyone else's permission.

It really isn't that difficult.

 

[ToffeeTim]

Ok, I'll boil it down. Companies trade. Companies employ people. Free movement says that companies can employ whomever they want without seeking government permission. They can then use this unfettered workforce to sell anywhere they want in Europe, again without asking anyone else's permission.

It really isn't that difficult.

No offence but that's what I've just laid out as ideal. That isn't what we currently have . It can legislated to guarantee free movement for work and enterprise. We currently just have free movement with no strings. Thats not sustainable and means we are stuck with those who don't work and have no intention to and takes up space that could be filled by genuine cases for asylum.

EDIT: after reading you're other post I'd just point out that identify is not inherently a bad thing. I'm proud to be from here. But as you say it's when you get nut job supremacists that the problems arise. Thankfully they are very marginalised here .

 

[Bruce Wayne]

No offence but that's what I've just laid out as ideal. That isn't what we currently have . It can legislated to guarantee free movement for work and enterprise. We currently just have free movement with no strings. Thats not sustainable and means we are stuck with those who don't work and have no intention to and takes up space that could be filled by genuine cases for asylum.

EDIT: after reading you're other post I'd just point out that identify is not inherently a bad thing. I'm proud to be from here. But as you say it's when you get nut job supremacists that the problems arise. Thankfully they are very marginalised here .

But that isn't what people voted for. Something like 80% or more of EU migrants work, so using the latest EU immigration figures, that still represents 140,000 or so people. Rudd has spoken about numbers of 10,000 or down about that figure, and not just from the EU but from everywhere, whilst shaming companies that employ foreign workers.

I guarantee that the costs involved in policing this (taking back control innit) will far outweigh any 'costs' involved in people coming here and not working. I've said to Joey many pages ago, the problem isn't migration, the problem is that our system of distributing funds to local authorities is disjointed. An influx of people to a town would be difficult to manage under the current system regardless of if those people came from Manchester or Madras.

All this has done is fueled a 'blame the foreigner' culture that whilst may not be present in the more sensible people on here, is nonetheless present in the wider society. The sad thing is, those folks don't realise that they're being played by politicians out to further their own careers. It's classic in-group/out-group politics, the kind of which has been played out for centuries, just with different people on the outside. It's ugly, it's mendacious and it should have no place in a decent kind of society.

 

[JimmyJeffers]

No offence but that's what I've just laid out as ideal. That isn't what we currently have . It can legislated to guarantee free movement for work and enterprise. We currently just have free movement with no strings. Thats not sustainable and means we are stuck with those who don't work and have no intention to and takes up space that could be filled by genuine cases for asylum.

EDIT: after reading you're other post I'd just point out that identify is not inherently a bad thing. I'm proud to be from here. But as you say it's when you get nut job supremacists that the problems arise. Thankfully they are very marginalised here .

I disagree with this. From personal experience, I have never met anyone who has left their family and roots, travelled round the world, with the intention of claiming benefits. In fact, if someone has shown the drive and determination to move, then surely they have the intention of trying to make something of themselves.

 

[peteblue]

Tuesday, 25 October 2016

Who is to blame for Brexit? Part One - who voted for it?

On 23 June 2016, the British people voted 51.9% to 48.1% to leave the European Union.
The turnout of 72.2% was much higher than in recent General Elections. However, 13 million registered voters did not vote and another 7 million eligible voters were not even registered. Millions of EU citizens living in the UK as well as 16 and 17 year olds were not allowed to vote, although there had been moves in some quarters to let them do so.
The vote for Brexit was a self-inflicted wound that seems likely to blight the UK for generations. The consequences of the vote are already being felt - a rising tide of intolerance and bigotry; the value of sterling has plummeted (according to one financial journalist to its lowest level since Henry VIII) pushing up the cost of imports, including food bills; Scotland is quite possibly heading for a second independence referendum, having very decisively voted to Remain.
As for the future, it is clouded with uncertainty and threat. It is clear that not only does the May government lack any plan to obtain the “best deal for Britain”, it does not even know what deal it wants.
“Vote Leave, Take Control” may become a catchphrase for arch-stupidity.
Who voted for Brexit? Immediately after the shock of the result of the referendum, it was being said that Brexit was due to the votes of working class Northerners. This narrative has been much repeated and is now widely accepted as true. It is not true.
Professor Danny Dorling has looked at the results of the only large scale survey carried out with voters on the day of the referendum by Lord Ashcroft. He found that the typical Leave voter is likely to have been middle class and living in the South.
Dorling points out that

• two-thirds of all those who voted either Remain or Leave were middle class (social classes A, B or C1)
• 59% of those who voted Leave were middle class
• 52% of those who voted Leave lived in the South of England
• proportion of Leave voters in lowest two social classes, D and E, was just 24%

Here are some other results below taken from the Ashcroft survey.
Age of voters

• the older the voter the more likely they were to vote Leave
• 73% of 18 to 24 year olds voted Remain
• 60% of those over 65 voted Leave

Ethnicity of voters

• White voters voted to Leave 53% to 47%
• Asian voters voted to Remain 67% to 33%
• Black voters voted to Remain 73% to 27%

How supporters of political parties voted
In favour of Leave

• Tories - 42% Remain; 58% Leave
• UKIP - 4% Remain; 96% Leave

In favour of Remain

• Labour - 63% Remain; 37% Leave
• SNP - 64% Remain; 36% Leave
• Lib Dem - 70% Remain; 30% Leave
• Greens - 75% Remain; 25% Leave

There are many more supporters of some parties than of others. Here is the make up of the Remain and Leave votes by party affiliation
How Remain vote was made up
Labour - 39%
Tory - 31%
Lib Dem - 12%
Greens - 7%
SNP - 6%
Other - 2%
UKIP - 1%
Plaid Cymru - 1%
How Leave vote was made up
Tory - 40%
UKIP - 25%
Labour - 21%
Lib Dem - 5%
SNP - 3%
Green - 2%
Other - 2%
Plaid Cymru - 1%
Almost 4 in 10 Remainers were Labour; 4 in 10 Leavers were Tory. Although there are comparatively few UKIP supporters almost all of them voted in the referendum so that they made up 25% of the Leave vote.
Reasons for voting Leave
The top three reasons for voting Leave were

• principle that decision about UK should be taken in UK 49%
• best chance to regain control over immigration 33%
• remaining would mean having no choice about how EU expanded membership in years ahead 13%

Crucially none of these three reasons bears out the electoral wisdom taken from Bill Clinton’s 1992 campaign that it’s “the economy stupid”.
In fact, a majority of voters thought that Remain would be better for the economy, international investment and the UK’s influence in the world.
Social attitudes
How did the people who thought the following a “force for ill” vote?
Multiculturalism - 81% Leave voters
- 19% Remain voters
Social liberalism - 80% Leave voters
- 20% Remain voters
Feminism - 74% Leave voters
26% Remain voters
The Green Movement - 78% Leave voters
- 22% Remain voters
Immigration - 80% Leave voters
- 20% Remain voters

The typical Leave voter was not a Northern working class Mirror reader. They were Southern and middle class and read the Telegraph or the Mail.
The typical Leave voter was also white and elderly. Many would still remember the days that Britain had an Empire. Perhaps the words of American Dean Acheson describe the feelings of many of these voters towards their country. Acheson said in 1962 that “Great Britain has lost an Empire and has not yet found a role”. Their vote was a defiant assertion of their country’s greatness. Sadly, they were delusional.


http://tomdlondon.blogspot.co.uk/

Article entitled 'who is to blame for Brexit' ends up blaming the voters.....with the usual non discriminatory rhetoric of course.

Come on Bruce, this has to be the most unbalanced and one sided bigoted article you have ever posted......

 

[peteblue]

He believes there are four basic freedoms of movement in being in the EU and he feels that all of them are equally important. Trade was all encompassed as one of those freedoms...as well as workers.

Why are you being obtuse?

I know what he believes and I know what he wrote. He just didn't answer the actual question, and nor did you.

Why are you being so sycophantic ?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Article entitled 'who is to blame for Brexit' ends up blaming the voters.....with the usual non discriminatory rhetoric of course.

Come on Bruce, this has to be the most unbalanced and one sided bigoted article you have ever posted......

It wasn't me that posted it, although it is quite momentous to be mistaken for Clint.

 

[1966efc]

Tony "It wasn't me, guv" Blair on Radio 4 today.

Urges naughty Brexit voters to be given a chance to mend their ways in a second referendum.

 

[peteblue]

It wasn't me that posted it, although it is quite momentous to be mistaken for Clint.

Hahaha, apologies. I have the flu. But it makes much more sense now.........I'd better just go back to sleep for a while....

 

[peteblue]

Tony "It wasn't me, guv" Blair on Radio 4 today.

Urges naughty Brexit voters to be given a chance to mend their ways in a second referendum.

That's very decent of him.....

 

[Pienaar's gloves]

Anti-immigrants, anti-multiculturalism and anti-greens voted out.

Not a news flash and not an indictment of all leave voters, but confirmation of what one has suspected for a long time!

 

[The Esk]

Having asked you a question about why the EU would wish to 'punish' the UK at the WTO about two dozen times without receiving an answer, I'm not really expecting you to answer this new one either.....

Currently the EU negotiates on our behalf with the WTO, negotiating tarrifs and other trade related matters like subsidies. Quotas and subsidies are then distributed across member states.

Let's take subsidies as an example of where future difficulties will occur. As a seperate entity from the EU we will have to negotiate our own farming subsidies which will be taken from the EU's current entitlement. Do you seriously not expect there to be problems over the allocation of such a politically sensitive resource (especially in France)?

Will not each member state wish to protect their own interests (not just in farming but in every other industry) at the expense of the UK?